Sonny Liston vs. Vitali Klitschko

I see a lot of discussion on Eddie Machen. Machen was good, never considered the best HW during his career, but a solid HW contender during his prime.

Machen went 50-11-3 (29) overall and was only stopped 3 times. LKOby1 Ingo Johansson in 1958, LKOby10 Joe Frazier in 1966, and LKOby3 Boone Kirkman in 1967 (his last fight). He was pretty durable. He lost a decision to Sonny Liston but gave Liston a tough fight. The fight with Liston was foul-filled and Liston lost 3 points. Machen was right around 6' and just under 200 Lbs. Liston outweighed him by 15 Lbs.

Machen lost decisions to Zora Folley in 1960, Harold Johnson in 1961, Floyd Patterson in 1964, Ernie Terrell in 1965, and a few others when he was past prime. He drew with Folley in 1958. Patterson and even Folley were better boxers but Machen was more durable. Patterson was a bigger puncher.

Cleveland Williams and Machen fought to a draw in 1962... in William's backyard.

 

You are right to be sceptical of opponent testimonies regarding power, but when multiple opponents are all saying the same thing, it becomes hard to dismiss.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s a duck.

 

Answer my question.

 

Perhaps some clarification would be in order.

I am only saying that Williams is at the upper end of the envelope in terms of power. There have been many more effective punchers than Williams. I would not infer that a person, who had taken Williams punches, would survive Joe Louis’s best combinations, for example.

At the end of the day however, Vitally Klitschko was an attrition based knockout artist. It is obvious that Liston can afford to take a few of his shots, if that is the price of winning.

 

Which one?:huh

 

"Vitally Klitschko was an attrition based knockout artist."

Let's see what the records of Klitschko and Liston actually say on this point. Here are the KO's they scored by rounds

Vitali Klitschko

1---(7)
2---(15)
3---(3)
4---(1)
5---(2)
6---(1)
7---
8---(3)
9---(3)
10--(4)
11--(2)
12--

Vitali won four fights by decision. He lost twice, but stoppages in 9 to Byrd and 6 to Lewis. His overall record was 45-2 with 41 KO's.

Sonny Liston

1---(eight)
2---(6)
3---(eight)
4---(3)
5---(1)
6---(5)
7---(5)
8---(2)
9---
10--(1)
11--
12--

Liston won 11 fights by decision, and lost four times, one by decision to Marshall, and three by KO's to Ali (2) and Martin. His overall record is 50-4 with 39 KO's.

Vitali KO'd 25 out of 47 opponents within 3 rounds (53%)
Liston KO'd 22 out of 54 opponents within 3 rounds (44%)

Vitali KO'd 41 out of 47 total opponents (87%)
Liston KO'd 39 out of 54 total opponents (72%)

Williams has been brought up a lot. What does his record say?

Williams KO'd 39 out of 92 opponents within 3 rounds (42%)
Williams KO'd 58 out of 92 total opponents (63%)

The records not only fail to back your point of view up at all, but definitely gave weighty evidence to the opposite, that Vitali was a stronger puncher than Liston or Williams.

I also noticed that a disproportionate number of Vitali's long fights came after his comeback when he was in his late thirties and early forties. He had gone back but was still good enough to win.

He also carried his power into the later rounds better than Liston or Williams did.

 

Okay.

But let's take Adamek who was a champion in both the light-heavy and cruiser divisions.

His record is 50-4 with 30 KO's. He has been stopped once, by Vitali.

Two of those 4 defeats came when he was 38. Only Chad Dawson and Vitali beat him when he was younger.

Why exactly is this record considered inferior to Machen's?

 

On Toney being better than Machen-

Janitor post #305

"I think we would have to say no based on records"

???????

Toney has a great long-term record. Machen simply failed to win all his key fights throughout his career. He was only a very good contender who like many, could not get over the hump to championship status.

 

At heavyweight Machen was obviously better. But when taking their entire careers as a whole, I can't see any viable argument to support Machen's having the better resume.. Toney was a multiple division champion.. undefeated in his first 46 or so fights. Has wins over men like Nunn, McCallum, Barkley, etc.. And was never stopped in nearly 100 bouts.

 

Vitali don´t dominated Lewis.

He retire because he just realized that this tempo is too much for his age
and maybe he was not in the mood or hungry for hard training.

That Lewis who call out Bowe would agree to a Vitali rematch anytime an Win.
Lewis for sure knows that either Kltischko has no chance against
him in his Prime.

 

First off let me say you are an excellent poster and outline your arguments well. But I disagree with your breakdown in comparisons of who hit harder. I don't think it proves the point that Vits MAY have hit harder. Watching film of both Liston seems to be the more powerful puncher, doing more damage with a single punch. Vits overwhelms his opponents with volume more so, just going by what we can see. In the end none of it is provable, just a matter of opinion.

 

Hey JAB.....remember you from the old AOL boxing forum.

I agree with you that Vitali gradually beats down his opponents over time. Liston was the bigger one punch banger.

 

Ed once again drops the hammer.