Ken Norton vs Big Cat Williams

Once again, how many times was Ernie Terrell knocked out again in 55 fights?

Oh right, TWICE.

Once by Cleveland Williams, and once, in his last fight, against Jeff Merritt (another bomber).

And who did Terrell say was the biggest puncher he ever faced? Oh right, Williams.

And Foreman said it, too. And Liston said it, too.

But why trust them? I mean, the day after Foreman fought ****ey, he was thinking about the only times he ever got hit that hard ... and he remembered Lyle and Williams.

But I'm sure he just said it to "spread myths" about Williams. :roll:

 

Terrell was just an untested 22 year old when he faced Williams the first time. He was unrated and hadn't beaten a single rated heavyweight. When he was older and more experienced, Williams failed to KO him, just like he failed to KO every other top heavyweight he faced. If Williams had knocked out a novice Jimmy Ellis, would you be impressed?

Remind me which other punchers did Terrell face? Liston? Nope. Frazier? Nope. Johansson? Nope. Foreman? Nope. Patterson? Nope. Quarry? Nope. So basically Williams hit harder than Doug Jones and Eddie Machen. Even Merritt's reputation owed more to his gym wars than his actual ring record.

So Foreman said Williams hit hard. Foreman says a lot of things. Foreman said he would have ducked Ken Norton had he been able to.

Which leaves Liston. Fair enough, he said Williams hit hard. A guy he nevertheless walked through pretty easily both times. Does that really qualify Williams as a brutal KO puncher?

And since another poster keeps mentioning Ali praising Williams' power, did Williams even land a punch in that fight? I don't doubt Ali said it but I suspect he was just trying to be nice. A good example of how boxers' words about other boxers should sometimes be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

Oh Christ.

Ernie Terrell was 23 years old, he was a Golden Gloves champ, he had 27 pro fights, and he was a top five heavyweight ONE YEAR after getting stopped by Williams. Don't act like he was a novice. And nobody knocked him out again until his last fight.

I didn't realize knockouts that came in your 28th pro fight - a year before you were a top 5 contender - didn't count?



Do you mean if Floyd Patterson or Chuvalo had knocked out Ali in the 1960s, it wouldn't have counted because Ali didn't have 28 fights and he wasn't 24 yet?

I swear ... what freaking nonsense. He only had 27 fights, so knocking him out in his 28th fight doesn't count. atsch

Williams knocked out Terrell. He knocked out Miteff. Williams battered and floored and beat the hell out of **** Richardson before Richardson purposely fouled out. He broke Sonny Liston's nose and went to war with him before being stopped. He knocked out Alonzo Johnson in one, after Johnson had faced all the top 10 contender and went the distance with all of them. He battered Sonny Banks and beat the hell out of him, and Banks died in his next fight from a single shot.

The best punchers of the era say Williams was the best puncher they faced.

"YOU" say he wasn't.

I'll take their word over yours. He hit them. He didn't hit you.

Now you're arguing Williams couldn't even punch. Enough.

You've gone from debating Norton and Williams to spewing bullsh*t.

:hi:

 

It absolutely does work like that. How many examples are there of an outclassed fighter winning? Scoring the unlikely upset? Countless.

My initial statement was that if Williams came out on Norton like he did Liston, Norton would be in trouble. I stand by that. The guys cited as surviving Williams I'm sure figured out how to avoid Williams big shots. I'm not sure Norton would/could, based on his freezing and getting belted several times.

 

Exactly. That's what nearly everyone agrees on. :good It's not freaking rocket science.

But this thread has now become "Williams couldn't punch and anyone who said he could were just telling stories."

At that point, it's time to go.

 

On that note debate is over.

 

When he fought Williams for the first time, where was Terrell ranked? What was his best win? Ernie Cab? Wayne Bethea beat Terrell a few fights previously. Wayne Bethea. That's where he was at that point in his career. A nobody.

What happened years later is irrelevant, as Williams wasn't fighting the Terrell of years later. Terrell clearly improved afterwards, since he didn't get knocked out by Williams in their rematch and got all his major wins and his WBA title AFTER fighting Williams.

Ali was heavyweight champion at 22, so yes I'd be very impressed if Patterson or Chuvalo knocked out the 24 year old Ali. Terrell was not heavyweight champion at 22. He was still on the fringes fighting other guys on the fringes. Not quite the same thing, is it?

Miteff? Richardson? Johnson? Banks? Christ. As I said, and you've just confirmed, Williams never knocked out an elite level heavyweight. Marty Marshall broke Liston's jaw and also dropped Liston. I guess he was a huge puncher too.

He hit them. He failed to drop them. He failed to knock them out. He got beaten by them. But he was a monster KO puncher. Right.

I never argued that.

 

Yeah. Cleveland Williams couldn't punch a lick.

The Hall of Famers who said he was the best puncher they ever faced all lied. Terrell was 11 years old when they fought and didn't even know how to lace up his gloves or tie his shoes. The guys he stopped took dives.

Norton knocked out all the name fighers he fought. Ali. Holmes. Foreman. Young. Ledoux. Shavers. C00ney. Cobb. They all fell at his feet.

And he had a chin of iron.

Williams had no power and no chance.

Is that what you want to hear?

End the thread. You guys have lost it.

 

I never said Williams couldn't punch. You made that up. He could punch. He knocked out lots of journeymen, club fighters and fringe contenders. But against elite opposition, his power came up short. He failed to KO or even knock down every top heavyweight he faced. That's a huge gaping hole in the idea of him being this monster KO puncher on a par with George Foreman.

And that's significant, because in a period of nine years, Norton's prime years, Foreman was the only person to KO Norton. It's not as if Norton could be blasted out by anyone who could run up a load of KOs against the likes of Alex Miteff and Alonzo Johnson. Just ask Duane Bobick.

And yes, you are making out the Terrell KO to be more important than it was. Terrell, at age 22, when he fought Williams, had ZERO experience against top heavyweights. Williams was the first top 10 heavyweight he fought. It was another year before he beat a top 10 rated heavy. You can't give Williams retrospective credit because Terrell became a highly ranked heavyweight later on. He wasn't one when they fought. Even at his best Terrell was hardly an all-time great. In 1962, he wasn't anywhere near his best. And that's by far the best KO Williams ever had.

So when it comes down to it, Williams' best chance of winning this fight is doing something he never actually did in his 92 fight career, KO'ing a top rated heavyweight. A heavyweight whose significant KO defeats were against two of the division's all-time punchers (#9 and #10 on the above mentioned Ring list; Williams was #49), and who was otherwise a more accomplished and more proven heavyweight at the highest level. You'd have to favour Norton.

 

On the contrary, people living through that time were impressed by how he handled respected punchers like Quarry, Garcia (in the rematch), and Bobick - enough that he was favored to beat Shavers despite his age and Shavers' own established rep as a puncher.

The "Norton could not handle real power punchers" belief came about largely following the last 2 losses of his career (when he was fading or shot), not during the peak of it.

 

And yet a few pages earlier in this thread, you isolated on a brief period in 1962 and criticized the use of boxrec to judge fighters based on what they had been or went on to be.

If you believe that Williams should be credited for beating a 28-fight Terrell, does that also mean Satterfield should be crediting for KOing a 30-plus fight Williams? Because Satterfield was much smaller than Norton and his chin far more vulnerable than Norton's ever was.