Larry Holmes at 16-0 in Manila October 1975

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Unforgiven, Nov 9, 2015.


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  1. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    v. Rodney Bobick, a preliminary to Ali-Frazier III

    [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDvWOzPN8Wc[/url]

    I think the camp for this fight was the last time Holmes worked as a sparring partner for Ali, and he'd already become too much of a handful, too smart, for Ali in camp.

    Holmes looks quite impressive already, a bit green, but probably already capable of beating everyone but a few HWs out there.
     
    Unforgiven, Nov 9, 2015
    Unforgiven, Nov 9, 2015
    #1
  2. boxfan22

    boxfan22 Active Member Full Member

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    Ali gave larry a black eye.
     
    boxfan22, Nov 9, 2015
    boxfan22, Nov 9, 2015
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  3. Nighttrain

    Nighttrain 'BOUT IT 'BOUT IT Full Member

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    What did you hear re: Larry being too much of a handful for Ali?

    Are you saying he was asked to leave or that he left because he wanted to pursue his own career?
     
    Nighttrain, Nov 9, 2015
    Nighttrain, Nov 9, 2015
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  4. Phil_Ivey_76

    Phil_Ivey_76 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    50/50 fight I lean towards Ali on points. Assuming Holmes trained for Ali and not Bobick.
     
    Phil_Ivey_76, Nov 9, 2015
    Phil_Ivey_76, Nov 9, 2015
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  5. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    That version of Ali beats any version of Holmes especially the 16-0 version. Ali here was still an ATG hwt and was punching harder than I've even seen him punch.
     
    Perry, Nov 10, 2015
    Perry, Nov 10, 2015
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  6. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    I mean he had become too good to actually learn anything from Ali by that point. He'd was being noticed as being as good or better than most of the contenders Ali was supposed to be fighting, and a smart enough fighter to trouble Ali in sparring sessions.
    Yes, to pursue his own career. If he had stayed it would have held him back.
     
    Unforgiven, Nov 10, 2015
    Unforgiven, Nov 10, 2015
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  7. Nighttrain

    Nighttrain 'BOUT IT 'BOUT IT Full Member

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    What is your source? Holmes autobiography?
     
    Nighttrain, Nov 10, 2015
    Nighttrain, Nov 10, 2015
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  8. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    That's one source.
    Do you doubt that Holmes was that good ?
     
    Unforgiven, Nov 10, 2015
    Unforgiven, Nov 10, 2015
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  9. Wass1985

    Wass1985 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I know what Holmes is like, his ego is bigger than his bank balance. He would have been trying his best in those sparring sessions with Ali and he probably believed Ali was doing the same. Ali didn't give his all in sparring.
     
    Wass1985, Nov 10, 2015
    Wass1985, Nov 10, 2015
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  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Holmes said Ali kicked him out of camp because Larry was too fast for him, but I'm not sure on the date. Ali's toughness and strategy were great vs Foreman, but Ali if he fought this way would have lost to quite a few greats.
     
    Mendoza, Nov 10, 2015
    Mendoza, Nov 10, 2015
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  11. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Holmes looked very sharp and probably could have taken a few of the lower echelon contenders by that point. He was still a good ways from being one of the elite though.
     
    mr. magoo, Nov 10, 2015
    mr. magoo, Nov 10, 2015
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  12. hussleman

    hussleman Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Holmes, admitted in his own book. That shortley before the Ali vs Foreman fight he stayed home and told Ali he was gonna pursue his own career. Ali, gave him and hug and wished him good luck.
     
    hussleman, Nov 10, 2015
    hussleman, Nov 10, 2015
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  13. Nighttrain

    Nighttrain 'BOUT IT 'BOUT IT Full Member

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    No. My curiosity is more focused on when he was capable of beating Ali and the dynamics surrounding the fight camp at the time . My intuition is that Manila marked the end of the period in which Ali would realistically be the prohibitive favorite. By realistically I mean that personas aside and solely based on ability at the time. I thought Holmes looked OK against Bobick, but that he had obviously grown exponentially as a fighter over the two and a half years before facing Shavers. Ali's decline during this period is equally rapid.

    The bottom line is that I am a nerd for this stuff. That is one of the reasons I am always curious about source materials and anything that can give me more insight.
     
    Nighttrain, Nov 10, 2015
    Nighttrain, Nov 10, 2015
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  14. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Yeah. Aside from Holmes's autobiography I have an inkling that writers who followed the Ali camp were becoming increasingly aware of Holmes's relative prowess and progress, and that Ali wasn't just coasting with him in sparring. I seem to recall in one of the Ali documentaries a writer saying as much, but I can't remember who it was, and there's a chance it was a revisionist statement made with hindsight.

    Being less vague, and contemporary of the time in question, I know that Red Smith wrote an article about the Ali camp on the eve of the Ali-Wepner fight, entitled "The Champion and His Court", published in the New York Times, March 24, 1975.

    He described Ali ....

    ... talking now about a tall young man on the fringe of the crowd. "The next heavyweight champion of the world" Ali was saying. "Larry Holmes ! When I started sparring with him I toyed with him. Now I win some rounds and he wins some. Larry Holmes, come over here where we can see you. I don't know if he's ready to go 15 rounds like that, but five or six rounds he can give anybody hell, I'm telling you - "
     
    Unforgiven, Nov 10, 2015
    Unforgiven, Nov 10, 2015
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  15. Nighttrain

    Nighttrain 'BOUT IT 'BOUT IT Full Member

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    It makes me wonder what was Ali thinking leading up to October 2 1980. Did he think he could do it ? Putting it in Allah's hands?
     
    Nighttrain, Nov 10, 2015
    Nighttrain, Nov 10, 2015
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