Nat Fleisher's Top 10 Heavyweights

Not according to Ferddie Pacheco's recollection:

"Almost too casually, Liston rolled over on to his back and looked up at the ranting Ali. Celebrity referee Jersey Joe Walcott could not begin the count until Ali headed for a neutral corner, but Walcott was slow to corral him. Meanwhile, boxing historian Nat Fleischer – “a little, wrinkled old man,” as Pacheco describes him – ran down to the ring and started shouting that more than 10 seconds had expired, and the fight was over.

In the midst of all the confusion, Liston had gotten up and resumed fighting. Yielding to Fleischer’s authority, although he had none, Walcott stopped the fight. "

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2006/02/34760/#rJHAzheBS5ABL0e2.99

 

H2H Charles beats a fair part of that list. And he defended his title 8 times, twice against a fellow heavyweight great Walcott. How does he not make it, yet Corbett does? Or Schmeling?

 

Not according to Ferddie Pacheco's recollection:

"Almost too casually, Liston rolled over on to his back and looked up at the ranting Ali. Celebrity referee Jersey Joe Walcott could not begin the count until Ali headed for a neutral corner, but Walcott was slow to corral him. Meanwhile, boxing historian Nat Fleischer – “a little, wrinkled old man,” as Pacheco describes him – ran down to the ring and started shouting that more than 10 seconds had expired, and the fight was over.

In the midst of all the confusion, Liston had gotten up and resumed fighting. Yielding to Fleischer’s authority, although he had none, Walcott stopped the fight. "

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2006/02/34760/#rJHAzheBS5ABL0e2.99

 

I'm not defending the list, I'm saying Charles doesn't belong in an all time top ten at heavyweight.Neither for that matter does Walcott.

 

Yes for whatever reason his contemporaries weren't as impressed with him as later generations were. Perhaps the fact that he just wasn't well liked affected his rating. Fleischer did turf him from the ratings after the Ali debacle. Not everyone thought he was unbeatable. Marty Marshall for one.

http://www.si.com/vault/1964/02/10/608210/the-four-who-baffled-liston

Charles was a great light-heavy. I don't see what he did as a heavy that decisively puts him over, say, Schmeling. His best win was probably an old Louis. Schmeling beat a younger Louis in more dominant fashion. Did Charles beat a heavy as good as Sharkey? You can say Walcott yet Walcott was hot and cold throughout his career and he did also beat Charles twice. Is getting KO'd by Baer worse than getting KO'd by Walcott? I wouldn't object if someone put Charles over Schmeling but there's really not much in it.

 

I'm sure Ezzard could grab his ***** and writhe around on the floor against Sharkey just like Schmeling did.

And I can see why a normal fan would have Schmeling top of mind. But an "expert" shouldn't. Can you imagine if Ken Norton had been destroyed in one round in his rematch with Ali? Norton isn't rated highly by most anyway, but that would've knocked him WAAAY down any lists.

Schmeling beat a young Louis. Schmeling won the title on a foul. And he made one defese.

How that qualifies him as one of the ten best heavyweights who ever lived ... well, it doesn't.

Schmeling was involved in the most-hyped boxing match in history up to that time, because of situations around the globe involving Hitler. But he wasn't a great heavyweight by any means. Certainly not one of the ten best ever. Even to that point.

Fleischer not only seemed to be one of the chief spinners of boxing folklore and hype, but that list seems to point out he was a beleiver in the stories he helped to manufacture.

 

So what would your top ten look like in 1968? :think

 

I have Pacheco's book it's full of innacuracies.Fleischer was in the front row next to the time keeper, he didn't need to run anywhere. Ferdie has given his interpretation of events and ,like a lot of his "interpretations",it's BS
Francis McDonough the timekeeper had neither a mike ,or a gavel, it was amateur night.
"He then left the fighters to go over to the McDonough. "The timekeeper was waving both hands and saying, 'I counted him out—the fight is over,'" Walcott said after the fight. "

 

So what would your top ten look like in 1968? :think

 

Johnson
Ali
Dempsey
Louis
Liston
Jeffries
Tunney
Marciano
Frazier
Schmeling

Something like that, it was a long time ago.:yep

 

His list is clearly a h2h list imo.

With that in mind even I disagree who am I to say I'm right?

 

I will grant you that Mr. Cream was not good at referring (see also patterson vs rademacher) , he was weak and should have retained control in the ring. Liston did not know the count because he was listening for the ref. However, I have heard so many accounts referencing Fleischer's overreaching that I am inclined to believe it.

"Thus, after former heavyweight champion Jersey Joe Walcott (who refereed the bout) botched the count, and former Ring magazine editor Nat Fleischer notoriously informed the timekeeper the figiht was over, the legend of a “Phantom Punch” was born."
http://ringtv.craveonline.com/news/390143-phantom-punch-th-50-year-anniversary-of-ali-liston-ii

By the way Ferddie Pacheco was the worst announcer of major fights ever! Sorry for that left turn.....or right turn there.

 

Here's the article I mentioned. The Corbett-Fitzsimmons film I mentioned was shown in 1962 - not 1965.

But the author of the article was there when Stanley Weston - who grew up listening to Nat Fleischer spin these tall tales - first saw the Corbett-Fitszimmons fight.

And he discusses how confused Weston was, because they were nothing like what Fleischer had told him for years. And Weston had taken what he'd heard from Fleischer and from newspaper articles written at the time - and started telling the same tales himself. Even elaborating on them.

This article was printed in 1980.

Page 1
http://postimg.org/image/8jjvn3rnn/

Page 2
http://postimg.org/image/r5f6sd0f7/

 

Weston was the illustrator for the Ring and later bought it.