On Fleischer's #1 criteria "ability to outbox boxers and outpunch punchers" I think Joe Louis probably ranks as the best bet for the pre-1960 era.
If you read 50 years at ringside Nat lists his criteria for all time greatness: Cleverness The ability to take punishment and not quit no matter what. The ability to land crushing blows. Nat stated in this book that the old timers were masters of the finer points of boxing which were lost to the present generation. ( the ability to feint, block, slip). The lack of great trainers to teach great boxing was the main issue. Back in the earlier years every city had multiple boxing gyms populated by great trainers. By the 50's when this book was written this was no longer the case. Nat stated categorically that although it was indisputable that other athletes have improved over the years it definitely was NOT the case with boxing. All this in fact was true.
The more I read from Nat, and I've read a lot, the less he seems to know about the actual endeavor of boxing, the fundamentals and what actually works in the ring. A fine bull**** artist, tho.
What did he (and you) mean by old-timers? "every city had multiple boxing gyms" In the 1890's? and how many folks were living in these cities compared to the 1950's. And when did it turn around? Is your argument that, let's say, Ali and Holmes and Lewis are inferior to the old timers? Or that Robinson and Moore were?
Ha-- you beat me to it! I don't understand how anyone who has seen footage of pre-1930s boxers doesn't recognize this. Basic skills that novices learn in their first months in the gym weren't in the repertoire of some of 1890s world champions. Balance, footwork, jabbing, combination punching-- all were vastly, vastly improved upon by the 50s. Some of the "subtle skills" of the old days are obselete and ineffective against evolved offensive tactics. I get Nat's ridiculous past worship but guys like Perry and Janitor are a mystery to me.
By 1959 no one had seen Ketchel fight for almost 50 years. If these old-timers had been shown the Ketchel-Papke film, that we can study today, would they have felt the same way?
I mean... who would be dumb enough to think that any middleweight of the past seventy years could survive against the supreme physical talent and advanced pugilistic skills of either of these men, really? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAOHjLJGqis
Amazing how some people see the old time fighters and still see brilliance. While others see guys who wouldn't even be skilled amateurs. Others see the modern fighters and don't see anything spectacular even skill wise. While others think they're the best ever. It's a never ending battle that we will never have an answer to. Unless, we can get the old timers in there with the new but sadly that's impossible. So we will truly never know for sure what is the case. Fun to debate but a fruitless venture none the less. Now, do I think the old timers could compete in any area? Yes, some of them like Sullivan, Corbett, Fitz, Jeffries, and Johnson. I wouldn't worry about them in any area. They were all time greats with all time great heart and a championship mind and supremely conditioned and had the athleticism to back themselves up. Those things will take you far no matter what era you're in. Plus they were no dumb oxes, they could think, adapt, and overcome and that would carryover as well. Call me crazy or hero worshiper all you want that's is my honest opinion. Just like Nat Fleischer had his own opinion back then and you all have now. Doesn't make me or anyone else right or wrong. Boxing is very subjective in that way.
A bunch of you that swear by the "eye test" are too ignorant to know what you are seeing. Having watched fights since 1989, or knowing the name of every fighter that fought on the third Tuesday in September 1923...none of that means you know what you are seeing. With all due respect.
Bold statement but in keeping with the op's continued reliance on hyperbole and grand sweeping statements.:thumbsup
You people live in a world where hwt boxers can't fight a lick. basic skills are no where to be found today. The feints, parries, blocking and countering seen in these past eras cannot be found today. Dempsey far surpasses Frazier as an example. Louis surpasses all others by a mile. Are we to believe that prior to Louis or Dempsey no hwt champion could fight? Ignorant mindset.
Many hwts had excellent jabs. Klit drops his jab every time he throws it. A great hwt would lay him out with that level of technical error.