Ali-Liston II revisited

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BillB, Dec 7, 2015.


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  1. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Liston went down in the 1st round. I think he took a dive, but it doesn't matter for what I am about to post.

    Legitimate KD or not, Liston went down.
    Ali refused to go to a neutral corner. Walcott was never able to begin a count on Liston, because of this. He was busy for the first 17 seconds forcing Ali into a neutral corner.

    By the time Walcott returned to Liston, Liston was up on his feet.

    Ali was also back out in the center of the ring, contrary to the rules. He was supposed to wait in the corner until the fight was signaled to resume.

    Walcott wound up stopping the fight and awarding a KO victory to Ali.

    For years I have cried foul. I maintained that no KO had occurred, because Liston was not counted out.

    I was wrong.
    In the absence of a count by the referee, the KD timekeeper's count is a valid count.
    The timekeeper had counted Liston down well over 10 seconds, even though Liston did exactly what he was supposed to do by staying down until Ali was out of the center of the ring.

    What went wrong?
    Walcott should have signaled the timekeeper to stop his count when he saw Ali's refusal to go to the neutral corner. Walcott didn't do this.
    Liston was indeed counted out by the timekeeper- unfairly but by the rules.

    Walcott could not allow the fight to continue given his initial screw up.

    His best call would have been to disqualify Ali for flagrant disregard of the referee's instructions.

    If Walcott had made the proper call and awarded the fight to Liston by DQ, what would have happened in the aftermath?
    Would there have been a rematch?
    How long would Liston have kept the title?
     
    BillB, Dec 7, 2015
    BillB, Dec 7, 2015
    #1
  2. Wass1985

    Wass1985 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Ali had Liston's number plain and simple, he'd have beaten him with ease if they ever did have a rubber match.
     
    Wass1985, Dec 7, 2015
    Wass1985, Dec 7, 2015
    #2
  3. Nighttrain

    Nighttrain 'BOUT IT 'BOUT IT Full Member

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    The proper thing to do was to begin the count only when Ali has gone to the neutral corner. Liston was not winning that fight.
     
    Nighttrain, Dec 7, 2015
    Nighttrain, Dec 7, 2015
    #3
  4. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    I agree BillB. I've pointed this out. The same people who said Liston should've been knocked out despite the fact that there was no count also said, Douglas shouldn't have been counted out, even though the count was also delayed. Very unfair and hypocritical. Also, the knockdown was definitely not real, he put his hands to stop the fall. If you're truly knocked out, you wouldn't be conscious. You wouldn't be able to put your hands out to break the fall.
     
    swagdelfadeel, Dec 7, 2015
    swagdelfadeel, Dec 7, 2015
    #4
  5. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Maybe Liston had Ali's number-

    Fall to the canvas at the first opportunity and count on Ali going nuts and getting himself disqualified.
     
    BillB, Dec 7, 2015
    BillB, Dec 7, 2015
    #5
  6. Wass1985

    Wass1985 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Didn't want to feel the same pain like he did the first fight....
     
    Wass1985, Dec 7, 2015
    Wass1985, Dec 7, 2015
    #6
  7. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    Based on what exactly?
     
    swagdelfadeel, Dec 7, 2015
    swagdelfadeel, Dec 7, 2015
    #7
  8. crixus85

    crixus85 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I only wish that the original Ali-Liston 2 fight had taken place on its November Boston date. Liston was apparently in great condition. Damn that hernia!
     
    crixus85, Dec 7, 2015
    crixus85, Dec 7, 2015
    #8
  9. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    Liston was in great condition. It seemed like he somehow managed to turn back the clock.
     
    swagdelfadeel, Dec 7, 2015
    swagdelfadeel, Dec 7, 2015
    #9
  10. LXEX55

    LXEX55 Active Member Full Member

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    Due to Liston's shady connections, Walcott's total mishandlng of the fight, Fleisher's interjecting himself where he had no role, Ali's stupid behavior after the knockdown, we will never know the truth.
     
    LXEX55, Dec 7, 2015
    LXEX55, Dec 7, 2015
    #10
  11. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I think we will.
    There are still a few people alive who know what happened and why.
    I think one of them will open up before he dies.
     
    BillB, Dec 7, 2015
    BillB, Dec 7, 2015
    #11
  12. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing

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    I think we do. It's quite obvious that fight was a fix. I don't know if Ali was in on it or not. But Do you really think that knockdown was genuine?
     
    swagdelfadeel, Dec 7, 2015
    swagdelfadeel, Dec 7, 2015
    #12
  13. Vince Voltage

    Vince Voltage Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I don't think Ali was in on it. As much as I love to criticize him, he seemed truly surprised when Sonny went down.
     
    Vince Voltage, Dec 7, 2015
    Vince Voltage, Dec 7, 2015
    #13
  14. 2piece

    2piece Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I always take in to account, the left hook that Ali throws immediately following the right hand. Ali was attempting to nail Liston with a combo right there. The next part is that in slow motion you can see that the punch did in fact rock Liston's head to the side, so he was shook by it.

    This leads to me believing that the fight was not a fix but, I do think that it was a dive. I think Ali hurt Liston a bit with that "counter right hand over the top" *Roy Jones Jr voice* He stumbled over and decided, that Ali was too good, too fast, and that he could not beat him. So he just stayed down. When he stood back up, more controversy ensued. Now here we are today.

    :deal:bbb
     
    2piece, Dec 7, 2015
    2piece, Dec 7, 2015
    #14
  15. LXEX55

    LXEX55 Active Member Full Member

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    I agree with that. Not many people left who would know the truth. Liston is dead, Dundee is dead, Walcott is dead, etc. Who exactly is left to tell the story?
     
    LXEX55, Dec 7, 2015
    LXEX55, Dec 7, 2015
    #15
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