How come RJJ never recovered...

maybe because for the first time ever he knew he wasn't unbeatable and coupled with the fact he could feel his speed slowing down it stripped him of the extra confidence he would of needed?

then again I just chugged a glass of wine that was excellent :good

 

Also he was like 35.

 

I think age is the ultimate enemy of any fighter and more particularly those which rely on natural athleticism. A prime jones had outstanding speed, timing, precision, etc. These are generally among some of the first things to go with old age.. That and the beating he took from Tarver and the abuse he put his body through rising in weight to fight Ruiz then abruptly dropping back down in such a short time.

 

He muscled up absurdly (Roy Jones Juicer?), and foolishly then opted to lose enough of that muscle mass to drop back down to LHW. Incredibly stupid not for him to retire after Ruiz. I figured he'd be too far drained to have a chance at taking Tarver I. Stunned that he managed to win that MD, but now I was sure he'd get the heck out while the going was good. The alarms were screaming, and he was completely deaf to them. Then his chin got exposed by a single left cross in the rematch, and his former mystique was completely lost to future opponents. The smoke had been vented out, and the mirror glass shattered.

The better question to ask is why he didn't quit when he was still ahead? Ruiz was the climax, Tarver I the fire alarms and flashing lights, yet he chose to play with the flames anyways and got burned.

Following Ruiz, he was the 12 round era's best candidate for P4P ATG. He still might have preserved that status after the understandable weight drained difficulties he had with Tarver I, but a P4P ATG candidate does not lose like he did Tarver II. He had every chance, warning and notice in advance that an outcome like that could become part of an irreparably damaged past, tempted fate one too many times after Tarver I, and wound up answering too many questions his reputation would have been better off leaving as unresolved speculation. Now he's just another cliche, a self-parody artifact curiosity we can rename Roy Jones Jeritol.

 

I don't think it was a case of RJJ not recovering, it was about time and wars not Tarver.

 

He did recover...

...HE'S GOT A "TITLE" FIGHT TOMORROW, SUKKKKKA!

 

even slowing down just an eyelash is enough to be the difference between getting hit and not getting hit. roy relied so much on speed and athleticism that just the slightest step back was enough for some punches to start landing.

 

He looked a shadow in the first Tarver fight, you could see him blowing hard after 4 or 5 rounds and the pace wasn't that fast. He had been gradually slowing for years

After the second fight his confidence dropped and he didn't have the stamina to fight at a decent pace anymore. The reactions dropped and even his power left him.

 

As Sean O'Grady once said, "the chin is like a cash register, in that it fills up and can't take any more"....and Jone's chin only held so much cash.

 

Jones was a great athlete disguised as a boxer. Jones probably could've been a very good NBA point guard or NFL running back if he had been in those sports. But his athletic talent disguised a lot of mistakes he made in the boxing ring. And unlike Ali whom he was very similar to as far as using those athletic gifts, he couldn't adjust, and as we found out wasn't near as resilient as Ali was was when he began to slow down. So shots that were missing by inches earlier in his career began to land. And unlike Ali he began to go to sleep lol.

 

Red, for a long time I believed that, but not anymore with respect to standing up under a punch. With careful scrutiny, I don't think that axiom of Al Bernstein's predecessor with Sal Marciano on ESPN holds up. O'Grady's expressed what he believes to be his personal experience with the chin=cash register metaphor, but looking at his record padded with tomato cans by his father, I just think his chin was never up to it once he tried dealing with a better degree of puncher.

Jones was simply too athletic for his chin to be tested, but that changed as he aged, slowed down, and his 25 pounds of muscle loss from full strength for the slower Ruiz weakened him. Tarver lost that first match with a badly inappropriate choice for competing against Roy, giving it away on points when he should have known to try blasting RJJ outta there. (That's what I'd have done, and what everybody I knew expected Tarver to try.)

Conversely, I think the chins of Foreman and Ali actually got stronger with maturity. I do not believe Lyle would have dropped the Big George of the 1990's (and Ron certainly tried to arrange a chance to test Foreman again), nor do I think George would have stood up to C00ney's hook or taken Morrison's hooks as he did if Tommy was punching the 1970's version of Foreman (who likely would not have given Morrison a chance to try either).

I like Sean O'Grady (I don't know anybody who doesn't), and tremendously respect that somebody who grew up around Champ Thomas was such a clean competitor. He's come across on broadcasts as such a nice guy for 35 years that there's great reluctance to criticize him as a boxer. But scrutinizing his record, I just don't believe he was truly world class, and his ability to take a punch actually left him when he moved up in quality. Kenty went after him like Hilmer did other harder punchers than himself for his entire LW Title run, and the O'Gradys were fully prepared for that. Sooner or later it was going to catch up to Kenty (who might have been killed trying that attack mode with Arguello). His natural style was never seen on television until after the O'Grady loss, in the decision over John John Molina.

Of course Sean had the conditioning for the championship distance. His father tried to restore the 20 round distance in his inaugural WAO'Grady HW Title fight for the coronation and promotion of his son-in-law Monte Masters, but Papa Pat's attempt fell through. (Later, he stripped Masters for divorcing his daughter. I think there have been worse reasons for stripping champions by other organizations however.)

Which match on extant footage most truly displays the level of boxer Sean O'Grady was? I think Pete Ranzany's ten round UD win as both their careers were ending in Sylvester Stallone's promotional debut revealed the truth about his limitations.

Hypothetically, if both Jim Watt and O'Grady had been wearing protective head gear so that neither had been cut in Glasgow (remember, Watt was almost stopped on cuts before that butt), Jim was going to win that decision. (Before either spilled any blood, Sean was dancing back and forth, hands down, not punching but timidly retreating from an advancing Watt's right jab.) During his reign, Jim wasn't considered a great champion by the American press, but recognized as good enough that only a great challenger could dethrone him in the UK. When Arguello became that successful challenger, Watt proved those pundits right, producing a credible and classy showing in defeat, not losing on cuts or getting knocked out and beaten up like most other southpaw opponents of Alexis, but taking him the championship distance behind that right jab and an atypical slow retreat.

Now, had Kenty reverted to his natural form for O'Grady that he restored for Molina, I don't think Sean would have been able to match Hilmer's speed of hand and foot. Again, Hilmer was early Hearns lite during his WBA Title run, strictly stalking instead of using his foot speed and mobility.

Verderosa suggests Sean may simply have never had that good a chin. Johnny the Heat wasn't nearly as fast at 147 as he'd been at 130, and Verderosa had been steamrolled in three by Boza-Edwards (who wasn't always in a Saad Muhammad type war) less than a year earlier. (Choo Choo Brown and Melvin Paul were other noted opponents Corny dispatched quickly.)

The first couple rounds, Sean really unloaded all his guns on The Heat, and Verderosa just absorbed it. After seeing what the smaller Boza-Edwards had done to John in his previous network televised appearance, I was startled. O'Grady no longer had the excuse of being weak at LW his father claimed for him after the Ganigan debacle, but should have been at full strength, and had a reputation as a good puncher. Verderosa took everything he had, then Sean crumbled in the fourth against an opponent who thus gained his final stoppage win in his last six bouts, and his last victory inside of ten rounds over somebody with a winning record in John's final 11 outings.

Sean did not look washed up in the opening rounds with Verderosa, but actually pretty impressive on offense, except for the fact his shots were just not causing John to buckle or wobble. Even in taking O'Grady out, The Heat looked a lot more faded with his loss of speed.

 

I agree with most of this, but I'll add that I don't recall any fighter going up in weight and then dropping down and doing well. I just don't think the body adjusts well to that at all, especially in your mid+ 30's and beyond. Pretty much every other fighter only went up in weight as they aged.

 

Great post

He should have gotten out post Ruiz. Hindsight is 20/20.

I am glad Mayweather appears to be getting out now. Eventually all fighters are exposed, even the greats, if they fight too long.

Marciano and, Mayweather if he does indeed quit for good, are two of the few who got out before a sad end. Hagler got out one fight two late, but didn't really embarrass himself. Calzaghe, although not really a great fighter, also left at the right time.

 

It's happened throughout history where a fighter with a great jaw (the immovable object) meets an irresistible force and suddenly everyone is knocking him over. There is a cerebral effect that leaves a fighter as damaged goods. Look at their careers post KO...

Jack (Kid) Berg against Tony Canzoneri
John Tate vs. Mike Weaver
Sean O'Grady vs. Andy Ganigan
Livingstone Bramble vs. Edwin Rosario
Jeff Fenech vs. Azumah Nelson II
Pipino Cuevas vs. Tommy Hearns
Donald Curry vs. Mike McCallum

And you can add Roy jones vs. Antonio Tarver II