Carlos Monzon. An examination of his resume reveals

Thanks. I was just asking about the past 50 years, so let's go with Hagler, Nunn, and Hopkins (pretty elite company).

Good call re: Nunn.

Hopkins' biggest wins came against a former welterweight (Tito), a former lightweight (DLH), and an assortment of limited, unimpressive opponents.

Hagler's list is only impressive if you count Hearns, a former welterweight with a suspect chin (esp. at middleweight). Otherwise, the best 5 that fight your criteria are probably:

Minter (already had been beaten and stopped by several lesser fighters);

Antuofermo (short w/ short reach by your standards, had already been stopped by the lesser Maurice Hope);

Mugabi (solid mw, dangerous puncher but no notable wins),

Hamsho (short by your standards but a solid middleweight), and

Roldan (solid middleweight but short by your standards, no notable wins)

 

And there lies the point, that you can diss pretty much anyone's comp if you want to.

 

Sugar Ray Robinson, Holman Williams, Charles Burley, Basilio, Cerdan, Duran, Hearns, Leonard etc etc at one stage or another, amateur or pro.

Valdez was competing as MW Challenger from the age of 24 and was the second best MW of his era. Now if you had an actual brain you may argue he was past prime but you don't have an actual brain and anyone you agree with feels a death inside of themselves when you do so

 

Lamotta built his career on picking on small WWs and getting gift decisions time and again, complete fraud of a 'champion'. Biggest fraud in MW History, not a top 100 MW, nevermind top 10.

Hagler's best wins are over WWs

Nunn ok maybe except he didn't dominate for long did he?

Hopkins - best MW wins arguably WWs

Greb lost and went life and death with a WW gatekeeper in Soldier Bartfield

Ketchell/Fitz - pre historic bums in the poorest era in boxing history

 

You keep harping on this 69 inches reach actually that is one inch longer than the only man to retire undefeated as heavyweight champion Rocky Marciano so what's the big point you are trying to make?

 

What are your guys' opinion about how good MWs Napoles, Griifith, Valdez and Benevuti were at the time Monzon faced them?

Did he beat better MWs than them?

 

Just over a year prior to challenging Monzon,Griffith had conceded 10lbs to **** Tiger and beaten him over 10 rounds.Griffith had won his last 10 fights. Valdez hadn't lost a fight in over 6 years. Benvenuti was about to start to slide but had only lost 4 fights out of 79 ,3 to world champions his defence against Monzon was the Ring's fight of the year . Napoles was too small to fight Monzon

 

The middleweight division has always had men in it who started in lower divisions. Fighters grow into divisions and others grow out of them. It's like saying Archie Moore was really a blown up welter because that's where he started at. There aren't many like Marvin Hagler, who stayed in the same division from his amateur days right through to his final pro bout.

What's more important is how they fared in the division against other middleweights. Monzon's title reign did have some padding but Valdez, Benvenuti and Griffith were all proven capable middles regardless of where they started years earlier.

 

The last time somebody started a Monzon thread, I decided to go to YouTube and revisit his title defenses. First one I pulled up was Monzon stumbling around after feather fisted Tony Licata and after a few rounds of slapfighting I could barely keep my eyes open.

What's the definitive Monzon performance? His edging an old Valdez or creaky Briscoe by the seat of his pants? Kayoing clunky Bogs? Going life and death against Bouttier? Alcoholic, shopworn Napoles that looked like his little brother in there? C'mon, be serious.

I agree with Klompton2's synopsis. And you Monzon devotees should have to watch him stumble around after Licata for a half an hour that you'll never get back like I did.

 

His definitive performance extended the 80+ fights he went undefeated and the 14 defenses he made of the middleweight title. Sorry if that doesn't capture the attention of the short attention span ESPN highlight crowd that lauds 3 second highlight reels but his record in the sport is the stuff of true championship pedigree... and the greatest middleweight champion remains Carlos Monzon.

And by the way, Tony Licata beat Griffith, Moyer and after Monzon beat Mike Rossman. He was rated the #7 middle in the 1973 and #2 middle in the world in 1974 and #5 in 1975 after Monzon beat him. Monzon was the first guy to KO him.

 

In all of Monzon's world title fights the only guys who were older than him were Nino Benvenuti, Emile Griffith, Denny Moyer and Jose Napoles so WTF are you talking about?

 

An old Valdez? Valdez was 29 years old Monzon 34.atsch

Here is a short synopsis of the Licata fight.

"In a televised fight, Middleweight Champion Carlos Monzon (in his only title bout at Madison Square Garden) found a competitive and game opponent in young Tony Licata. Monzon was clearly ahead on points and dominated the bout with frequent combinations. Licata tried hard, and landed on occasion, but he was hit more often and had trouble penetrating Monzon's defenses. "
Licata was rated in the top 10 for 4 straight years!
Napoles had lost one fight in the last 8 years ,on a cut eye stoppage which he reversed in the rematch.

Bouttier went life and death with Monzon? He was stopped in the first fight being floored along the way and decisively outpointed in the rematch.

Here are the scores.

Referee: Harry Gibbs 145-139
Judge: Pietro Ambrosini 147-138
Judge: Herbert Tomser 148-145
Nothing "life and death "about that!

Briscoe was a year younger than Monzon. He was rated in the top ten for 8 straight years!

You are full of it!

ps I don't have to watch highlights ,I saw the fights when they happened.

 

It's true that Monzon's best wins were against Former WWs but then so were Hagler and Hopkins.

Ok then "Mr Expert" name me 100 MWs better than LaMotta.

 

This seems solid enough for me.

 

Hagler's resume is better than Monzon's.

Leonard, Hearns, and Duran tower above any single opponent Monzon faced. I agree with the rest of what you wrote.