Was Louis more shot against Marciano than Tyson was against Lewis?

I have never implied he was not a legitimate contender
.What I've stated is he no longer had his power,the contemporary papers ,Louis himself , his results ,and the films totally and irrevocably confirm this.I'm not going to repeat it again ,so you go with whatever you like. atsch

 

Yes all this irrevocable evidence does not confirm Louis did not deck Agramante. He did. And Cleveland Williams did not.

It does however confirm Old Joe was needing more rounds and knocking out less fighters than he did in 1940, but the guys he was fighting in 1951 were as good fighters!

In 1940 Louis fought Godoy, Paycheck and McCoy. Cesar Brion beats paycheck and McCoy on the same night and marciano beats Godoy. Bivins, Beshore and Savold beats McCoy and Paycheck too.

 

Cleveland Williams is as relevant to this discussion as a Martian.
Agramonte fought Walcott a year before he faced Louis.Walcott floored him 4 times for a 7rounds stoppage!
.
In Agramonte's next fight, a month
after TWICE going the 10rds distance with Louis ,he was floored twice for 9 counts by Clarence Henry.
Three months after the Louis fight Agramonte fought Bob Baker and was floored 8 times! A year after the Louis fight Agramonte was stopped by non puncher Johnny Williams losing all but one round and being floored .

GIVE IT UP!!!!!atsch

 

True but those fights came literally "years" after Tyson lost to Lennox.. And the inactivity along with the Lewis beating and additional aging could have had a lot to do with those losses. I don't think that the Tyson who lost to Kevin McBride in 2005 was the same Tyson who lost to Lennox Lewis in 2002.

 

Louis used his right hand to knock him down and its a good knock down by anyone's standard. Agramante was thrown to the wolves after and was matched hard before. In that fight on film he's a tough kid. He could fight. He turned up for Louis.

 

Carry on without me.atsch

 

For me that's his best moment on film, his Joe Louis quintuple hook against Max Baer instant, and I hold no objection to this view. However, because of what Marciano did to Louis, Matthews couldn't be surprised at it like Joe was. Louis warned all of Rock's future opponents that Marciano was no longer the one armed puncher at the world class level he'd been commonly thought of as.

 

yes. Louis only came back because of tax. He had hung up his gloves for good and was in no way serious about winning the title again, nor envisioned making defences if he did.


Tyson came back for the mney too mainly, but he wasn't completely shot and out of it when he did, ad he probably felt compelled to in order to complete his career. He wasn't completely retired and being forced back.

 

Johnny Williams of course, did not stop Agramonte.

Agramonte was only stopped twice after the Louis fight in 9 losses. One stoppage was on cuts against Baker, the other was his final fight against Valdes.

Orgamonte in defeat went the distance with Cleveland Williams, Clarence Henry x2, Bob Baker, Joe Louis x2, and Bob Dunlap.

 

First we have to clarify "shot".

My definition of "shot" is where a fighter of former good reputation has become a danger to himself. An accident waiting to happen. I don't need to insult anyone's inteligence here. we all know what stage I'm talking about. It's the stage we don't like to talk about. A fighter who can no longer win at his former level.

This is not the same as not being able to produce the same result winning against good opponents. This is not being able to win at all at a fighters former level. It's gone! To me this is what shot is.

Angelo Dundee described it as when a fighter can't skip no more. He's lost the motor skills required to coordinate himself in the former fashion that the fighter previously could. He said he and Ali spoke about this one time watching a shot fighter trip up on the rope.

Ali said "you tell me I'm slipping when it happens to me" and Dundee promised to earth him so he could get out. When the time came, the first sign in the gym, Angie reminded him "your slipping kid" and Ali said "I know Angie, I know". This is my definition of shot.

By this margin, I don't think either Tyson nor Louis had reached this. They were winning fights but they were far from an accident waiting to happen. They were not yet losing at a level they could win at. They were just taking more time to win.

 

No my mistake ,you're right he didn't stop him , he just floored him,as did Henry twice ,and Baker 8 times.
Dunlap dropped him twice too.

The obvious point of my post being it was no feat dropping Agramonte ,and the fact that Louis managed it once in two fights is not evidence that Louis still had his power.

Agramonte was stopped by Walcott a year prior to the Louis fight being floored 4 times inside the 7 rounds the fight lasted.


Agramonte was stopped 7 times ,so it wasn't that difficult to do.

 

Interesting. Your answer may be predetermined depending how you feel about the talent pool of the more modern heavyweights, I've tried not too take that into account with my answer. I'd pick Tyson, which in essence compliments Louis' longevity. Everyone's a winner

 

There's a little uncertainty in how much Tyson had left because he got drilled really hard with an uppercut early in the fight. He might've shown a little more if not for that punch.

 

It's the evidence you need to accept that Joe Louis still had a right hand. If Ernie Shavers put Agramante down once in two fights with a right hand all it would show is that he still had a right hand too.

It does not matter that the guy went down more times against other guys after the event. Agramante was a real tough kid in THIS fight with Joe Louis. The film shows this. Each case needs to be viewed on merit and at what stage Agramante was at each time.

Floyd Patterson never went down at all against Chuvalo and Bonevena. Does this mean those two guys couldn't punch NO more?

 

Your whole argument that
Louis still had his power is based on him knocking down Yo Yo Agramonte once in 2 ten round fights.
I've showed that Agramonte was floored 4 times in his 7 rds stoppage defeat to Walcott a year earlier, that he was floored multiple times by men not considered huge punchers, including 8 times in a 10 rounder by non- puncher Bob Baker whose ko% is29% , that Agramonte was stopped 7 times in his career . Neither Chuvalo or Bonavena were top flight punchers let alone even in the same stratosphere for power as Louis.


Still you fly in the face of all logic to persist in your contention that Louis still had his awesome ****nal,though his results , his own testimony, and that of contemporary writers emphatically contradict you.

It's been a complete waste of time engaging in this with you, your mind was closed before you even began. My mistake.