Marciano vs Ali: Great fight or mismatch?

You rhetorically asked for some examples of cuts based stoppage predictions, and I had the recall to provide examples by both the media and even by Mike Rossman as a successful title challenger himself, but it's certainly not a popular fantasy outcome or common strategic plan to do this.

No, I do not predict a stoppage on cuts for Ali. I think for the most part he stays away for a decision win where Marciano doesn't get close enough to pull the trigger that much. Rocky was no Chuck Wepner (who again, Ali did NOT stop on cuts) or Henry Cooper. Their styles and height differentials will not lend to head butts and elbows being much of a factor, and Marciano was defensively competent, keeping his head behind his shoulder and arms kept upright.

I'd expect more like 15 rounds of the first five rounds of Ali-Norton II, where Ali sticks and moves steadily while Rocky gets little opportunity to unload his guns. This is what JJW believed might have happened, and he did share the ring with both in competition when each was at his prime. Marciano might well get cut, but that would not be a factor in the outcome. When Ali did come off his toes, neither Terrell or Jerry Quarry had much success with him, as he was just too fast and too far away.

The actual visual of the Woroner film was pretty convincing to me. Logistically, this is too much for Rocky, who did not close quickly or cut the ring well (in 15 rounds of Charles I, Ezzard's back made incidental contact with the ropes for only an instant in the final stanza), needed a knockout to dethrone the best mover the HW division had at the time, and was never seen against a stick and mover the stature of Ten Hoff (who I think would have stayed away for as long as he could before his glass jaw got nailed).

Marciano would not have much chance to land on any part of Ali's body, within or outside of legal scoring areas, hips, arms, kidneys or whatever, and he didn't unload unless within range. Ali would not have played games with Rocky, and would be able to hit without being hit much in return. I don't expect either to have been taxed too terribly much by the final bell.

 

Careful Bummy you'll have McVey on your ass trying to illustrate the difference between 'a bleeder' and someone who just got a couple of bad cuts like that! :good:|:roll:

Seriously Bummy, great post - great to still read level headed stuff from people who genuinely love the sport :happy

 

Sorry this is just nonsense. Wilson lost to Marciano because of a deep cut on his eye the fight only went 1.50 of the first round Wilson was not knocked down and protested at the stoppage.


"The bout was stopped because of a deep cut over Wilson's left eye. Marciano concentrated on using his left hook in the brief fight. The crowd of 3,351 booed the quick ending because Wilson was a willing and strong opponent, but the fight had to be stopped because of the severity of Bill's injury"

Lastarza suffered no fractures in either of his fights with Marciano.

"Trying to knock the challenger out with one punch, the 29-year-old Marciano was over-eager and awkward. He lunged, butted, hit below the belt, on the break and after the bell. Once, he swung so wildly that he missed and slipped clumsily to the canvas. Outboxing the champion and avoiding his blows, LaStarza managed to win four of the first six rounds.
In the seventh, Marciano changed his tactics, started aiming at LaStarza's body as well as his head in an attempt to wear the challenger down. He succeeded."

Lastarza was back in the ring within 6 months fighting C*ckell in London.
Marciano did not fracture Vingo's skull and the injuries he suffered were partly due to his head hitting the canvas with great force

"Marciano put Vingo down for the count with a left uppercut in the sixth round. Vingo, who hit his head hard on the canvas when he went down, was unconscious. He briefly regained consciousness in the ring but lapsed back. After about twenty minutes, and with no ambulance available, Vingo was placed on a stretcher and carried two blocks to a nearby hospital"

You will have to name the other fighter whom you say had his teeth sheered off by Marciano.
Marciano did not sheer any of Layne's teeth off, he knocked two of them out and broke his bridgework.
"Marciano bloodied Layne's nose and mouth, opened a cut above his left eye, knocked out two teeth and smashed his bridgework."

 

I comprehensively outpointed you in our debate!
You made three statements that I proved were wrong ,that's the bottom line. Then you blamed your computer for miswording what you typed I readily accepted your explanation ,now you make a sniping remark about me?

I think you were caught bang to rights talking nonsense and didn't want to admit it.

Well I showed you don't know jack sh*t about Marciano ,Cooper or Ali.
You said :
Marciano was not a bleeder
and was only in danger of being stopped on cuts in the second Charles fight.
WRONG .He was close to being stopped on cuts against Simmons .
He was cut against:
Shkor
Louis
Moore
Simmons
Charles1
Charles 2
Walcott1

That's means he was susceptible to cuts end of.
Marciano was bleeding from the nose and around the left eye as early as the 2nd rd against Moore.
You watched the fight and didn't hear the commentary?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-zQyijXFNQ


You said who did Ali ever cut apart from Cooper who cut in every fight?
Ali cut 14 opponents and Cooper was only stopped on cuts in 4 of his 55 fights So you were WRONG on both those counts.
You said Ali's cut against Foster was probably worse than Marciano's in the first Charles fight or in the first Walcott fight WRONG Ali had just 5 stitches.
So actually that's 4 out of 4 you got WRONG ,still feel like sn****ring?


Not swallowing myths hook ,line, and sinker, does not mean you are not a fan of boxing or that you do not love the sport.
Not admitting you have been proved wrong does mean you are lacking in a particular department.

 

C'mon this is too much for even the great Marciano we are talking about a conditioned, elite, athletic, strong, hard punching inside and out, fast giant. This a baiter thread

 

:rofl ooooh :|. If you knew anything about Henry Cooper you'd know bang to right he was absolutely the archetypal 'bleeder' pretty much what the word was invented for :good. My dad and uncle grew up through his era and they both said words to the effect of if you sneezed on him he'd cut - he's absolutely RENOWNED over here in Britain with every man and his dog for being the bleeder - to the extent that it basically hindered a possible very good career so that fact that you insinuate that he wasn't a bleeder by throwing your usual boxrec stats and sources at me as though you are some higher law shows you really know jack **** about that little subject right there :hi:

 

I dont know where you are getting your information from.

I have gathered my knowledge from over 20 years of watching and reading about boxing.

I investigated Lastarzas arms and found information that says his arms were broken . And that Rex Lanes teeth were sheared off just like I remember.

 

Henry Cooper ? I actually saw him fight live at Wembley and of course saw all his televised fights as they happened.
You didn't ,so don't try and teach me to suck eggs.
He lost 4 fights out of 55 on cuts and I know for certain you have no idea how many times he was cut.
... You are talking out of another orifice other than your mouth.

 

I've been watching, participating in , and reading about fights for over 50 years. Show me ONE PRIMARY SOURCE for any of the statements you made that I took issue with ,otherwise it's just a lot of BS.

 

I ain't bull ****ing.

That part of my post about ali getting his jaw broke by Marciano was just a joke anyway. Ali broke his jaw once and Marciano got cut bad only once, so i was just using the same logic as those saying ali would win on cuts. Yes Ali could win on cuts but marciano could just as likely cause some sort of damage to Ali with his punches that would win him the fight. After all Marciano stopped a lot more of his opponents.

 

Ali was very well known to have ripping/cutting type punches. Thus it was not just the idea that Marciano was cut during his career that led to what was portrayed during the computer fight.

 

When it comes to inflicting damage Marciano is probably the greatest all time especially over a 15 round fight. Yes Ali could win the fight on cuts but Marciano could win the fight based in a wide range of different type damage done with a single punch or many punches. Ali was not that hard to find.

 

I say it would be a competitive fight and in fact the best Marciano would give Ali hell. However prime Ali was not an easy target to hit.