John L Knocked Jeffries Down!

Maybe I'll start a thread on how Ali and Frazier were actually best friends.

 

Like I said.

My upcoming book on Sullivan should tell you all you need to know about him. I don't think it fair to denigrate him and his abilities or career unless you have educated yourself about him, the context of his contests, and what actually happened.

 

I never said I saw it, my point was some others did.

At least, I know what I'm watching. You have to retract your statements!

 

I always find myself questioning Jeffries a bit and his opposition. He couldn't finish Tom Sharkey twice. Who Fitz ko'd easily in three rounds. It took him 23 rounds to finish a 34 year old Corbett. Who was giving Jeff a boxing lesson until the KO. Corbett before that had lost by DQ to Sharkey and lost by KO to Fitzsimmons. I wonder how he even got a title shot beyond just his name? An old Fitzsimmons gave him a horrible beating in their second match. An old Fitz and Corbett are his three best KO victims to me. Which isn't overly impressive especially since he out weighed them by quite a bit. Choynski also gave him a horrific beating on his way to a draw. You can say he was green for some of these but I'd still expect a hard hitter to have better results than that. Since he did have a few of these men on the canvas but yet couldn't finish them. No doubt though he was a very strong man with a great chin and stamina.

So in my mind Sullivan is the harder hitter and finisher. Also alot of ko that wouldn't considered during Sullivan's time would be considered ko's now. The one's who fought to survive would be DQ'd today as well. Or even considered TKO for going down so much.

 

A few Educational points:

In the first fight, Jeffries was green. In the second match, he injured his shoulder in round two, but badly beat on a very game Sharkey. Knockdowns were scored in both fights, and if they fought with a modern ref, the 2nd fight would be a TKO win for Jeffries. After this fight, Sharkey was pretty much ruined from the damage sustained.

Many punchers, even all time punchers failed to finished lesser men than Sharkey.

Also, Sharkey has a win over Fitz via DQ, and it's hard to tell if there was a foul or not.

Corbett was 33 in the first fight, not 34 and his performance in the ring was a very good one.

As for Fitz, yes he was a special puncher, but Jeffries finished Corbett ( 10 rounds ) and Ruhlin ( 5 rounds ) sooner than Fitz did. Of course, he KO'd Fitz twice, taking his best when no one else could.

Now, who did Sullivan KO quickly because Mitchell who Corbett KO'd in three rounds a well? Names please and records of the fighters. Most name Sullivan opponents lasted a long time, longer than Corbett did with Jeffries, or they went the distance. So pick between lack of power or skill to deliver it.

Which power puncher did Sullivan face? Sullivan's wins pale in comparison and part of that was his fault for not fighting Slavin or Jackson. No match with Goddard either. Likely the best three of the 1880's to early 1890's asside from Corbett.

Didn't Sullivan have a weight advantage too in almost all fight? I think so.

Tommy Morrison who had great power smoked a lot of B class guys too. I just find very few "A" wins for Sullivan and few ducks of " A " level fighters. He lost badly to Corbett at age 32. Some say he drank. So did Jeffries.

To close, Sullivan's own words:


"I don't mind saying that I believe that the style of fighting today is far and away ahead of the old style ... Jeffries at his best and me at my best, Jeffries would have put it on me. I never was a really scientific fighter ... My game was the old game -- standing up and fighting and depending upon sheer power and pure strength and endurance to get by. I won most of my fights by rushing ... But if a big man today were to fight the same way I did and try those rushes on with a man like Jeffries he'd get slaughtered, that's all. He'd get himself killed ... Jeffries, with his quickness and impenetrable crouch, and his immense power of endurance, and his vast hitting power, and with all of the foot-shiftiness of the new style -- there can't be any doubt that, had it been possible for Jeff and I to meet when we were both at our best, he would have sent it over on me. More than that, I never saw the man that I thought could stand a chance to lick Jeffries. If he's wise he'll not fight any more. He's too big to get down to trim."
----------

Take note Sullivan is saying he lacked skills. I think he had a top right hand for the time, and benefited on the defense stance and tendencies of the era.

 

Good points I actually didn't know some of those. However, 33 was still consider old for an athlete during that time and like I said I don't know how he got the title shot beyond his name. The pics of Corbett around that time make him look old. If 33 year old Corbett gave a prime Jeff so much trouble. It might not be so bad that a way past it Sullivan couldn't hardly land on a more prime Corbett. Sharkey is a great win especially injured but I'm interested now to see what punchers have failed to ko lesser men that Sharkey? I know a few at the time thought Sullivan would knock Sharkey's head off.

As for the ducks Sullivan did have Slavin in his challenge but Corbett got the money first. Even telling Australia that Slavin and him would fight one day. If anyone of the guys you say Sullivan ducked Jackson, Goddard, Slavin did get to fight him even in 1889 they wouldn't be given a whole lot of credit cause many said Sullivan wasn't half the man he use to be even in 1885. A few were surprised he got in shape to beat Kilrain. Sullivan's hard life made his prime very short sadly. It looks like I'll have to re read pollacks book on both men. As a twenty one year old college kid its hard to find time for reading books for the actual fun of it.

 

Corbett was in fine shape, and according to his own people had his best ring effort. If he was shot, he would not have lasted long.

Be careful with using Corbett as a source. Detailed round by rounds say the fight was very close prior to the KO, so saying, Jeffries was in a lot of trouble is a stretch. Pollack who wrote book on both said it was anyone's fight after 22 rounds, but Jeffries was clearly coming on.

Below is a detailed round by round. Judge for yourself

[url]http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9506E6D91E31E033A25751C1A9639C946197D6CF[/url]

As big time punchers that failed to KO lesser men than Sharkey, Foreman took men the distance, So did Liston, Marciano , Wlad and many others. Even Tyson. Just check their records. Sharkey had a very good chin and will. Men like Maher, Goddard, McCoy and Choynski who could not stop him prior to 1899. After 1899 fight with Jeffries, Sharkey was hospitalized and wasn't quite the same.

I agree Sullivan's prime was short, and his accomplishments in this window, combined with who he didn't meet make him hard to evaluate.

Glad to see a reason minded poster!

 

I have addressed most of Mendoza’s points repeatedly in other threads, but he still keeps trotting out the same tired arguments, and hoping that nobody has noticed.

 

Janitor,

No you have not. I have asked and made many points that you either do not acknowledge them or skip them. Let's try this one more time, and please do not make excuses.

Who are Sullivan's best-gloved wins? Names and records of the fighters, please. This should be easy.

Do you agree he did not fight the best opposition in his time and either a win over Jackson or Slavin would clearly be his best-gloved win? Yes or no. If you say No, you'll have to explain why and show me who at the time was better than Jackson or Slavin

If you say Yes, your acknowledge Sullivan did not fight the two best besides Corebtt who he lost to.

Heck, I say Goddard who he did not fight either would be his best gloved win.

He was, in fact, knocked down by a non-punching middle in Mitchel, and took him 39 rounds in the other fight to end the 150-pound Mitchell, who had Sullivan eyes marked up and in a daze. Mitchell had but 9 ko's in 49 fights.

Wouldn't such a thunderous puncher simply put away such a smaller man who could not really hit hard? Yes or No?

And don't tell me Mitchell was super durable, Corbett sparked him in 3 round too!


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