What most people don't understand about Frazier-Foreman II.

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Ali was a dangerous puncher at the time of their trilogy, unloaded more hard shots on Joe than any other opponent, yet Frazier holds the record of having gone the most rounds with him, a record which Joe expressed wanting to extend during the post fight conference after Manila.

He went more rounds with Bonavena than anybody else. Jerry Quarry barely hit Ali in being dominated. Smoke dominated the Belter twice. Nobody was hit by Jerry as much in a bout where where JQ was dominated as Joe did in 1969, a situation where Joe emerged unmarked and unbuckled. Mathis had decked Wepner with an early head shot, something Foreman, Liston, Bugner and Duane Bobick did not do to Chuck's chin, and Buster was riding a ten knockout win streak when Frazier derailed him.

From his 1967-1971 prime, he never had the opportunity to beat a really top shelf puncher, but there were guys who had very respectable power that he successfully negotiated. Standing ground or trying to muscle him backwards, as Chuvalo, Stander, Bonavena, JQ and Cummings did, failed to prove a recipe for beating him, in and of itself. The punching skills of a Mathis, Machen, Jones, Ali and JQ were not sufficient to floor him.

Manuel Ramos actually fought him pretty well for the six minutes it lasted. Both guys pitched over 80 punches in the opening round, according to my first attempt of a stat count off the footage. During the second round, Ramos came close to unloading 50 punches, while Smoke actually ramped up his total to around 100 shots, despite the interruption of the first knockdown and seven count on Pulgarcito 25 seconds in, with Joe's 20th punch of that stanza. (Even with round two over, Ramos called it off. An intervening rest period wasn't going to make a difference. He couldn't match power or pace with Frazier, his hooks to Smoke's body had done nothing to slow the smaller guy down, he tried a good follow-up attack after that early uppercut bomb, and Joe was actually picking up an insane tempo for heavyweights.)

Watching how energetic Frazier was in this pre-peak performance, and how quickly he recovered from that right uppercut 35 seconds after the opening bell, I'd be reserved about presuming you could call it in for peak Foreman against the 1969 version of Smoke (whose own right uppercut was really ripping on Ramos). The Mexican obviously didn't have George's physical strength, punching power or punch resistance, but he was faster, a more efficient puncher, and more proactive on defense.

Smoke's improvement as a result of going the championship distance in Bonavena II is evident in JQ I. We don't see the frenetic 80-100 punch pace per round he overwhelmed Ramos with, nor is he missing wildly anymore. (Even with Manuel standing from 6'3" to 6'4" in height, some of Joe's hooks and crosses went sailing over his head.) He's much more controlled with Jerry, unloading with anywhere from 50 to 74 punches a round, averaging out in the mid to upper 60s for a steady work rate, and JQ was indeed correct in his next day post-fight interview with Cosell, that Frazier was clever with his subtle use of the head, shoulders, forearms and elbows in efficiently conserving a measure of energy against the possibility of another long bout. (Jerry also made it clear that he was no choir boy when it came to extracurricular non-punching tactics, and understood it as part of the trade.)

After Ramos, Joe said, "That's the first time I've ever been hit that hard. I was really shook, but when you're IN CONDITION, you can shake it off." He was no longer remotely at that level of resilience for either bout with Foreman. Earlier, he was just 21 years old for Bonavena I, probably not yet physically mature for his first major test 21 against somebody about to turn 24, who had already beaten Chuvalo over ten, Peralta over 12, and received a boxing lesson from Folley over ten for the cameras. We saw how dramatically the physical maturation process advanced Ali's punch resistance after 1963. Frazier was 25 for JQ I, and 26 for Ellis I, fully experienced, physically matured, optimally conditioned, and more accurate and efficient than he was for Ramos, against that better opposition. Jimmy Cannon was probably correct after Frazier-Bonavena I in stating that Joe didn't really have the chin to support his style, but again, it was a premature judgment to pass on a 21 year old kid who got much better over the next half decade.

Reviewing Frazier-Ramos before Frazier-JQ II and Frazier-Ellis I, I feel even more strongly that it's unfair to stereotype Smoke as an incorrigibly slow starter in the Duane Bobick-Michael Spinks-Carlos Palomino mold. After Bonavena II, he started championship distance bouts at a more controlled and seasoned pace. He didn't come in cold, and he wasn't sleep walking after a dressing room nap. With Ziggy, both guys fired off half a dozen punches in the first 13 seconds, concluding when Frazier dumped him with a double hook. After Zyglewicz got up, both guys fired off around 26-30 shots before the knockout, Joe ducking around nine attempts at return fire. Dave was obviously a badly outmatched victim, but Frazier remained controlled and mindful of defense between knockdowns, not wild in his tune-up for JQ I.

 

Your exaggerating it. It was not that bad. You're making it out to be like Holmes-Ali... Calm down.

 

You're acting very hypocritical. You'll point out that Foreman wasn't the same monster from '73 but you won't point out, this wasn't the same Frazier from 1971 or even 1973. Frazier had diminished much more than Foreman from 1973 to 1976. You're acting like he was the exact same fighter. No just stop.

Frazier is not as easy to hit as many think. If he can avoid some of ALI's punches, he can certainly avoid Foreman's Harder but SLOWER and LESS ACCURATE punches.
Contrary to popular belief, Frazier could alter his style. Frazier was known for his come forward style, but he didn't always just walk right into his opponents power range and try to beat them down. He countered, used his feet better and punched off the angles when pressured himself. He did this against Chuvalo, Quarry, Ellis, and Bonavena in their rematch. Against Foreman, Joe thought that he could just out-smart and out-bully the bully and instead he got bullied around himself.

Chuvalo pressured Frazier and backed him up a couple of times in the fight. What did Joe do? He backed up, jabbed, countered and used his right hand more, and in better condition, showed the head movement against Chuvalo that he didn't against Foreman. Plus the fact that Chuvalo wasn't allowed to turn the match into a wrestling contest like Mercante allowed Foreman to do against Frazier. Now we all wkno there's a distinct difference in punching power between Chuvalo and Foreman, but not a whole lot of difference strength wise.

This clearly portrays a bias.

It was not a brutal beat down by any means. It was fairly competitive fight. Funny you mention the newspaper coverage on the bout. One says Frazier "HAD HELD HIS OWN UNTIL THE FIFTH ROUND."https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1301&dat=19760617&id=fYZWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3OYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3509,5042508&hl=en

 

I see you've ignored all my other comments.