John L Knocked Jeffries Down!

San Fran Call the day after the bout.
"After 20 rounds it appeared that Corbett would stay the limit and popular judgement awarded him the victory. He had up to this time avoided any serious punishment. His face was unmarked and the scratches on his arms and shoulders had more to do with the clinches than Jeffries blows. His defense was perfect and he smiled with confidence."

 

Janitor, I'm asking you!. If you can't list them, I think I know the reason why. They do not rate well. Like I said before on this topic you ignore my points and won't answer my questions.

Yes, I can. Best gloved opponents, in my opinion, are:

Corbett - Lost to via KO
Cardiff - Draw
Mitchell 150 pounds - KO Win
Burke - Win on points
Greenfield - Police stoppage
McCaffrey - Points win


I do not need film to rate a fighter, but when there is no ring action or training film of a fighter near his prime, who he beats becomes very important. Don't you agree?

The only top ranked heavyweight Sullivan fought with gloves that rates in the top 200 of all time heavyweight was Corbett at age 32 and it was a mismatch. Sure John L was past it best, but his old style and skills were no match.

NOW here's a list of much better opponents that Sullivan did not fight that rate MUCH higher. The times lines, the color line, or a flat out duck / throw the belt in the trash are reasons, but never the less if you want to argue the below men were not better than the gloved fighters Sullivan defeated, the floor is yours. My point is they were active before Sullivan officially retired, not that all the fights were feasible to make. Re-read the last sentence twice, please

Peter Jackson - He was Black. The fight could have been made has Sullivan wanted it.

Frank Slavin - Did much better vs Kilrain than Sullivan did! Richard K Fox a power broker of the Police Gazette-backed the fight. Sullivan balked!


**If Sullivan had fought or beaten either, that's his best win by a good margin, Janitor and you know it! And I'd rate him higher.**

Mick Dooley - Aussie Champion with a verifiable record.

Joe Choysnki - Beat plenty of name fighters. We know who.

Joe Goddard - A very good fighter down under. Ko'd Burke ( Sullivan won on points ), KO'd Choynski, KO'd Dooley, drew with Peter Jackson! And many others

Peter Maher - Beat Godfrey, Craig, Buttler ( Same as Sullivan ). Drew with McAullife

Pat Killen - Who? A big time puncher who turned pro in 1883 in the USA. 55-2-3 with 52 KO's! Kod' Cardiff, who Sullivan drew with. A match here would have been nice

Fitzsimmons turned pro-1885. Likely has tons of unlisted fights as Fitz claimed he fought around 300 times

I can add more that would be in Sullvian's top six opponents if needed!

If you're still reading, you can acknowledge the men who Sullivan did not fight with gloves is much greater than the ones he actually fought.
Can you do this, Janitor? Of if you disagree we can debate it. I'd like an answer please as I put some work into the replies.

1 ) We are talking gloves here.

2 ) I am aware who Kilrain is and Mitchell as a London Rules or bare-knuckle rules

3 ) Sullivan himself preferred gloves!

Then neither should you.

That's debatable, but Jeffries was older, more inactive, and had to lose even more weight for his comeback fight. He was also more competitive with Johnson. Sullivan didn't win a round vs Corbett.

And If Mitchell was hit hard enough he won't get up, or will quit. He woudl also be tired from throws and such. There were ref and corner stoppages back then. Sullivan took a lot of time to get Mitchell at 150 pounds or so out, and he was marked up and hurt himself.

How far back do you want to go? Dutch Sam, Daniel Mendoza, Jim Mace, Tom Cribb? While I do agree bare knuckle fights went longer I also think Sullivan who was much bigger and Stronger than the 150is pound Mitchel should have finished it sooner. It doesn't hurt a bare fist much to land on the stomach, solar plexus, arms, lower ribs, etc..

 

Adam said it was anyone fight prior to the KO. If you want to quote him directly, that is what he said. Jeffries won via 10 count KO.

I see you are saying Jeffries should have KO'd Sharkey among other posted garbage. I'll stick with this point of yours. Pick the puncher, anyone in history and I'll show you a non-hall of fame man ( Sharkey is a hall of fame fighter ) the puncher didn't stop and took the distance. :deal

Your double standards are legendary, and know we know you like to make stuff up!

You won't do this, because you know I'm right

In a modern sense, Sharkey would have been TKO'd in the 2nd fight. He was badly hurt, out of his feet a few times and had great damage. Points you skip is Jeffries also injured his left arm / shoulder in round two, and had to fight with it, limiting his best weapon.

 

Most all of the reports I have read do not give a bottom line as to who won each round. However I did find one that did. The Daily American newspaper gave a round by round summary and it looks like this:

Corbett. Jeffries. Even
1. 1. 0. 0
2. 1. 0. 0
3. 0. 1. 0
4. 0. 1. 0
5. 0. 0. 1
6. 0. 0. 1
7. 1. 0. 0
8. 1. 0. 0
9. 1. 0. 0
10. 1. 0. 0
11. 0. 0. 1
12. 1. 0. 0
13. 0. 1. 0
14. 0. 0. 1
15. 0. 1. 0
16. 0. 0. 1
17. 0. 0. 1
18. 1. 0. 0
19. 0. 1. 0
20. 0. 1. 0

So AFTER 20 ROUNDS Corbett indeed is ahead by the score of 8-6-6 in rounds. This jives with the quote from the San Fran call I posted yesterday which stated that After 20 rounds Corbett was winning.

21. 0. 1. 0
22. 0. 1. 0
23. Ko by Jeffries

So after 22 rounds this ringside scorecard had the bout 8-8-6 in rounds. This is only one scorecard here but it does appear he felt that Jeffries surged late in this bout sweeping the last four rounds (19-22) and then scoring the KO in the 23rd. If this were a 10, 12, 15 or 20 rounder Corbett may very well have won the decision. As the rounds went by later in the bout Corbetts earlier lead diminished.

 

Just about every newspaper I've read states Johnson Jeffries was a one sided bout.

 

Thanks Perry. A few comments.

1 ) For openers 8-6-6 is close. But fights then were scored differently as a whole, not by rounds.

Say Corbett gets up after the 23. Put another one in the Jeffries column, to 8-7-6 then add in the fact that Jeffries has two knockdowns.

Under such a circumstance, The ref would likely pick Jeffries as the winner as how you finish mattered then. It still matters now.


2 ) If we score by rounds, Jeffries has a 10-8 round prior to the KO, so the fight is dead even going into the 23rd, which of course Jeffries won. Had Corbett got up in the 23rd he loses another 10-8 round and the fight unless he somehow floors Jeffries.

I posted a good round by round report here by the NY Times. You can judge for yourself who is in the lead there.

3 ) If the fight was 15 or 20 rounds, it's fought very differently. Who is to say when Jeffries ups his ante in a shorter fight? Jeffries was a very patient fighter, but when needed ( See Fitzsimons 2nd fight ) could become very aggressive and end it.

 

Double message

 

Adam said it was anyone fight prior to the KO. If you want to quote him directly, that is what he said. Jeffries won via 10 count KO.

I see you are saying Jeffries should have KO'd Sharkey among other posted garbage. I'll stick with this point of yours. Pick the puncher, anyone in history and I'll show you a non-hall of fame man ( Sharkey is a hall of fame fighter ) the puncher didn't stop and took the distance.

Your double standards are legendary, and know we know you like to make stuff up!

You won't do this, because you know I'm right

In a modern sense, Sharkey would have been TKO'd in the 2nd fight. He was badly hurt, out of his feet a few times and had great damage. Points you skip is Jeffries also injured his left arm / shoulder in round two, and had to fight with it, limiting his best weapon. _ Mendoza

Adam said here it was anyone's fight going into the 23rd here.

My point is the 2nd fight would have been stopped in modern times.

Sounds like your saying he should have stopped him to me. Jeffries floored Sharkey in both fights, and badly hurt Sharkey in the 2nd, sending him to the hospital.

Now Mr. I lie and make false threads up if you want to hold it against Jeffries ( Green in the 1st and injured in the 2nd ) for not being able to stop Sharkey, I will put you on your proverbial @ss showing you any puncher who you pick failed to KO a man of equal to ( Sharkey = Hall of fame fighter in his prime in 1899 ) or lesser value. You won't take me on. OWNAGE and Double Standard exposed

Just go away. You're outgunned as well and I really don't want to reply for your off target stuff.

 

Perry,

Mcvey is twisting words. I think you knew better that to take him at face value. The first ten rounds as scored were close. Jeffries won 4 and 9, scored by papers, drew first blood ( I think round 5 )and was slightly the busier prior to round 4. Johnson really came on from round 10 to finish.

If it was a 10 round fight, what I said is a draw would not be out of the question. This doesn't mean Johnson UD in 10 could not happen. If you consider the backdrop of the times, a Jeffries draw after 10 rounds even if he was down a little is very plausible.