Rocky Marciano vs Lennox Lewis

Bowe could infight.

What do you make of Vitali as an infighter?

 

I agree with that.

So if we say have five elite fighters at elite level, we have one that is exceptional, one that is functional (Vitali), two that found newish solutions (Lewis and Wlad) that stretched legality.

That's not bad.

 

I think they would be effective if they were smaller.

It's absolutely inevitable that this will happen on a long enough timeline.

Plenty appear on the rankings before that. There are some champions, too. I would suggest though that as people got bigger it was inevitable that this would be the case because size was an advantage.

Lewis's two best boxing performances to me were Tua and Rahman II. He was huge in these fights. 250 plus he was overweight. Most fighters are less good when they are overweight.

 

Of course not, Louis p4p is his superior. Just like Robinson-Louis at 147lbs would be favourable to Robinson. But why are we talking about this?

Why? Wlad has, purely from a mechanical point of view, a better jab, a better right hand, better power and Ellis may not have the power to take advantage of his chin.

Long between absolutely world class infighters? They're rare.

Because the division isn't great now.

To some and not to others. The best boxers since Tucker have been Chris Byrd, Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis. They are all superb boxers.

Long reach is a defining factor in neutralising the opponent in any division, yes. A definitive advantage in reach will always be an arena where the fight will be decided one way or the other, that's from fly to heavy.

I would agree. But skilled fighters such as Wlad, Vitali, Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield and other more minor boxers continue to emerge because skill at boxing is still at a premium.

I'm not going to go over the glove thing with you again. It was proven, as far as I am concerned, on the forum, that glove size doesn't render a meaningful advantage in power punching.

12 rounds definitely helps guys with smaller engines and big heavies definitely qualify.

 

This doesn't mean they don't exist? If Chris Byrd says Wladimir Klitschko has a better jab than Lennox Lewis, that means, mechanically, he is punching exceptionally well. It's a very good jab. When he's fought guys with similar reach advantage it's generally remained a very good jab. He's not powerful, accurate and consistent because of range.

But this was in reply to a point about why excellent heavyweight infighters will inevitably emerge on a long enough timeline? When more heavyweights you personally enjoy watching will emerge is a completely different question and one i am incapable of answering for obvious reasons.

The above is pure fantasy. You are describing, basically, one fighter, Wladimir Klitschko. Lewis didn't "jab and grab." Bowe had as much skill as just about any heavyweight. Tyson Fury just won the heavyweight title based primarily on a strategy that called for movement.

"Most recent", not last. Anthony Joshua and Olek Usyk look like absolutely superb boxers to me, excellent technicians. If either one of them makes it to the top of the division your entire narrative is destroyed.

And you want to insist, endlessly, that this state of affairs is absolutely permanent, despite having obsessively tracked the very recent changes.

It's swings and roundabouts, it would come again.

Holyfield turns pro today? World heavyweight champion. Tyson turns pro today? World heavyweight champion. Liston turns pro today? World heavyweight champion.

Even in the real world there are fighers emerging that contradict your point of view

You produce ABSOLUTELY NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE RELATING TO BOXING. You produced a study where, literally, a hammer hitting an anvil produced more power when "wearing" a smaller glove.

I produced TWO STUDIES based upon BOXERS WEARING BOXING GLOVES DOING PUNCHING, including one where you CAN ACTUALLY WATCH THE TEST BEING CONDUCTED.

The fact that you are standing in preference of a study where a hammer strikes an anvil from a perpendicular position, an action as unlike a punch as it is possible to imagine, tells me everything i need to know about you: the belief comes first, then you select the evidence which most supports your position. It's ridiculous, it's ridiculous that I predicted it and turned out to be right. I do actually literally feel sorry for you.

 

I have absolutely no idea how one would qualify such a thing. I find the whole discussion ridiculous, frankly.

Here's what we know: Wladimir is one of the hardest punching heavyweights. Reducing him in size will reduce the power of his punches. On the other hand, he passes the eye test in terms of technical excellence in landing a punch and generally good technique is called for in hard punching anyway. So pounds per square inch will be removed, yes.

In general, I would expect a guy who is a very hard puncher for 250lbs to become a very hard puncher at 190lbs if he is magically "shrunk". So Wlad ceases to be a very hard heavyweight puncher and becomes a very hard cruiserweight puncher. Let's say, sub-Marciano, but still very hard. He'd be one of the hardest punching cruiserweights ever.

On the other hand, he'd also become faster, presumably.