Sonny Liston's reign if Ali never existed?

I think he would have been defending his title more and more out of condition and lose the title around 68 or so but I can't decide who.
I don't think Frazier would have beaten him even then.

 

I tend to think he rules comfortably... Frazier or Foreman will spark him sometime between 68 and 72

 

I suspect that he would not have to wait for a big name to stop him . bonavena,quarry, etc

 

He'd eventually lose to father time. Out of the fighters that challenged Ali in the 60s, I don't see any beating Liston.

 

He was a drinker and a gambler, possibly dabbled with dope, and at least in his 30s, some thought he was 40.
He was already used used to short blow-outs, probably starting to believe his own press clippings .... and on top of that he might have thrown fights to pay off gambling debts.
I doubt he'd reign long.

 

Machen was in no way afraid or intimidated by him before, during or after their 12 rounder, and Eddie had no problems taking Sonny the limit armed only with a healthy left. Give Machen the fully healthy right he used to floor Nino Valdes for the count with a body shot, and I wouldn't be putting money on the outcome of Liston-Machen II. This is a rematch Sonny would have taken very seriously, but Eddie would still have major advantages in hand speed and mobility.

Nobody questions that Liston was a bigger puncher than Machen, but it was Sonny who got buckled with a huge left hook from Eddie 2:30 into round eight. Machen already experienced Liston's full capabilities and potential after those 12 rounds in Seattle, but Sonny had no idea what Eddie was capable of with a fully operational right.

With no Ali, Machen would have clearly been the most viable former opponent of Liston's to challenge Sonny in a title rematch. If he dethrones Liston, I do not see the HW division stabilize until Frazier's ascension.

 

We need to know why Liston lost to Ali, in real life.
We need to know if the same situation would have existed without Ali.
The people who ran Liston may have decided it was time for him to go regardless who he defended against in 1964-1965.

 

Yeah, he'd run out of viable opponents. Johansson was the only real name out there left, and he'd retired.

 

Machen said that in a way, Cleveland Williams was harder for him than Liston because the Big Cat possessed hand speed Sonny didn't.

Patterson didn't have Machen's mobility and foot speed for walking around Liston like Eddie could. Whitehurst did not share a healthy Machen's two fisted power.

I really think Eddie Machen had the combination of hand speed, mobility and two fisted power needed to take a championship distance rematch from Sonny. He could also get under Liston's skin. Nor was he going to get ambushed by Sonny in a return go after the way Ingo had suckered him with Johansson's characteristic display of cautious timidity.

 

If Ali had never existed Liston may well have held the heavyweight title until his death in 1970. True he was past his prime by the mid 60's but other than Ali who was there around to beat him? The men Ali fought after beating Liston were in no order Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, Henry Cooper, Floyd Patterson, Earnie Terrell, Brian London, George Chuvalo and Karl Mildenburger. Three of those men were beaten by Liston and the rest wouldn't have posed him a serious threat.
As for the top heavyweights in Ali's exile Buster Mathis, Joe Frazier, Jerry Quarry, Oscar Bonevena and Jimmy Ellis, I am sure that even a past prime Liston could have got past them. Joe Frazier would have been Liston's toughest opponent out of the lot but pre 1970 I think he would be too inexperienced for Liston. Liston was offered as an opponent for Frazier around 1967 but Yank avoided him like the plague In fact Liston could have became champion in Ali's exile but after his flop in 1965 he was excluded from the rankings. If Ali never existed Liston could have reigned for years.

 

Ultimately, he'd have lost to someone he shouldn't have lost to on paper. Those calling for a long reign for him are discounting what goes in to having a long reign too heavily IMO.

His lifestyle at that point wasn't the type needed to maintain a long, consistent championship reign. I think for Sonny, as it is for many champions, getting to the top of the mountain was the goal for so long that he lost motivation once he got there. The drugs, the partying, the gambling, the lackadaisical training...he either retires after a couple defenses, or he gets upset.

 

Sonny Liston was the greatest threat to Sonny Liston's title reign.

 

Bill may be right and Liston's backers might have demanded he "do a job" to whomever they could get good odds and make fat cash with.

Putting that aside, it would seem likely that Sonny's pride would get him up for the bigger name challengers but that he would go half speed for those on the fringe. I could see a sluggish Liston get outhustled by the likes of a Manuel Ramos or Dave Zyglewicz and the title switching to Frazier circa 67-69 without much of a fuss. On the other hand, Liston handled the Rischers and the Clarks pretty well up until the Leotis Martin fight, so maybe I'm selling him short on his intrinsic self-discipline.

 

It would n't have surprised me had Ernie Terrell outboxed an old Liston circa 1966.