Floyd Patterson vs Jack Dempsey

Footwork, hand speed, experience, and arguably technical ability.

 

I would also suggest that those who think that Patterson was as big as Dempsey, would do well to look at the tale of the tape.

Dempsey had 1’’ in height on Patterson, and 6’’ in reach.

He had 3’’ on Patterson in chest.

He had 2’’ on Patterson in biceps.

He had 2’’ on Patterson in wrist.

He had 2’’ on Patterson in thigh.

Waist and neck were more or less even.

Patterson was punching above his weight even at 185lbs!

 

Brennan and Miske were decent in those categories but not George Chuvalo or Jimmy Young.

Do you think Dempsey hit harder than Liston? Do you think Dempsey would beat Liston? Would Dempsey even fight Liston?

So was it a fake or was Dempsey at a very early stage of his career? You can't have it all ways. Going into the Flynn bout Dempsey hadn't lost in two years and he only lost two fights in the following nine years. As I said, the main source for it being a fake is Dempsey's none too reliable ex-wife.

Meehan clearly wasn't just fighting to survive as he won more rounds (and fights) than Dempsey did. It has to be said his record against Meehan isn't terribly inspiring.

You say defensively orientated as if Patterson is just going to wade in swinging face first. Brennan wasn't defensively orientated. He stood toe to toe with Dempsey, caused him problems simply by jabbing and tying him up inside, and pushed him close. Was Brennan significantly more durable than Patterson? He was knocked out as many times as Patterson was. It's debatable whether he hit harder than Patterson and certainly wasn't faster or more talented. He'd also recently been thrashed four times by a middleweight. Would Greb beat Patterson?

Firpo's only advantage over Patterson is power. Was he really that durable? Liston and Ali would have KO'd Firpo as well and Johnannson might too. Besides, it's not as if Patterson was feather fisted and he was immeasurably more talented, most skilful, more accomplished and faster than Firpo. If a completely hapless slugger with few discernible skills could drag Dempsey into a life or death struggle, hurt him, drop him, put him through the ropes and almost KO him, you're telling me Patterson has no chance?

Patterson stood 6'0 and weighed 190lb the night he KO'd Johannson at age 25. Dempsey stood 6'1 and weighed 187lb the day he KO'd Willard at age 24. Yet somehow one's a blown-up light-heavy and the other isn't.

Patterson lacked durability against Liston. So would a lot of fighters. He was also a lot smaller. I don't buy that because Liston flattened him so would Dempsey. Liston would have a good 25lbs on Dempsey. Ingo could punch too. He poleaxed teak tough Eddie Machen in one round, no mean feat. And again Floyd got up every time Ingo put him down and won their last two fights. He actually showed good durability against Ali, refusing to go down despite taking a beating. His chin held up against an all-time great puncher in Moore, and respectable punchers like Quarry, Bonavena and Ellis. Most of his other knockdowns were flash ones in fights he was winning handily before and after the KDs. Joe Louis got knocked down a lot too. And he got KO'd by Schmeling, who probably didn't hit harder than Johansson, Did he lack durability?

And if anybody gets wobbled by Carpentier, you'd question how they'd handle a punch from a superior harder hitting opponent.

Foreman would dwarf Patterson. Dempsey wouldn't dwarf Patterson.

Patterson would have a chance, but Louis would have a much better one.

I didn't say Patterson only has a puncher's chance. I said he has a chance based on his own underrated attributes and Dempsey's vulnerabilities. You're saying Patterson can't last 15 because only Gibbons managed it. Yet Dempsey only had a handful of fights scheduled for 15, and fought very few opponents who would be considered superior to Patterson. Furthermore, Gibbons was ahead at the halfway point before fading down the stretch. And Gibbons was an actual light-heavy with limited heavyweight credentials (which including recently losing to a middleweight), a lesser offensive threat than Patterson, and over whom Dempsey had a significant size advantage, which he wouldn't have over Patterson.

If Dempsey can struggle, lose and/or look vulnerable against less talented, less dangerous, less accomplished fighters than Patterson, I don't see why Patterson only has a snowball's chance in hell. Patterson's credentials going into a Dempsey fight would be better than Tunney's were in 1926.

 

When were these two men measured? There must be some reason these men came off at the same weight. Dempsey was 187 at 24 years old for Willard, 188 at 26 for Carpentier. Patterson was 190 at 25 for his second fight with Johansson.

Was Patterson measured when he was younger? perhaps for the Moore fight.

 

Just on Bill Brennan versus Patterson in punching power--

Berlenbach -- "It's debatable whether he hit harder than Patterson."

Janitor -- "He did not have the power of Firpo, or the style to allow him to say in the fight that Brennan had (possibly not his power)"

I assume that "possibly not his power" implies that Brennan might have more power than Patterson!

I think it nonsense to put Brennan in anything like the same class as Patterson as a puncher.

Looking at Brennan's record, he scored 48 KO's in 102 fights (47%)-
His top KO victims--George Rodel, Tony Ross, Soldier Kearns, Tom McMahon, Bandsman Rice

I welcome any correction about his big name KO victims, but don't see that Brennan stopped any major opponent at all.

Patterson? He scored 40 KO's in 64 fights (62.5%)-his top KO victims--Ingemar Johansson, Archie Moore, Hurricane Jackson, Henry Cooper, Roy Harris, Yvon Durelle, Jimmy Slade, Tommy Harrison, Brian London, Charlie Powell, Tom McNeeley

Now for a champion who held the title for five years, this is not a particularly impressive list, but it is a ton better than what Brennan managed.

I think the better question would be a judgment of Patterson against Firpo as a puncher.

Firpo scored 26 KO's in 39 fights (67%), including Jess Willard, Bill Brennan, Charley Weinert, and Erminio Spalla. Patterson stacked up against better competition over a longer period, but Firpo at least is a good comparison.

 

The frame of dempsey was clearly naturally bigger

 

Tunney did.

 

My gut feeling is Dempsey, but Berlenbach makes an excellent case for Patterson. Floyd is one of the most underestimated fighters of all time.

 

Patterson was always pretty unimpressive under the tape measure.

Even for the Ali fight when he was 37, he was given as:

Chest 40 normal 42 expanded.

Wrist 6

Thigh 21

Biceps 14

This arguably makes his accomplishment at heavyweight more impressive of course.

 

Yes but Tunney ran away from him backwards for the entire fight.

Patterson wouldn’t, and this would be his undoing, even against that version of Dempsey.

 

"for the Ali fight when he was 37, he was given as"

Yes, "given as"

but was he actually measured at this point? or were they merely reprinting old measurements from the better parts of two decades earlier?

For me, there seems to be something wrong with the shorter Patterson supposedly being smaller all over but still ending up heavier.

Were his bones larger? Did he carry significantly less body fat? as muscle is heavier than fat? But Dempsey certainly does not appear to be carrying much body fat?

On balance, I pick Dempsey to win this one, but I find Berlanbach making the strongest argument.

But this tale of the tape just seems off to me.

 

Janitor-

"Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say Patterson hit as hard as Brennan"

I repeat that this is nonsense for the reasons given in my post 52 above.

There is no evidence at all that Brennan was a particularly strong puncher. Off their respective careers, Patterson was not only punch for punch the harder puncher, but obviously could throw combinations at a whole different level from Brennan.

I would challenge those who think that Brennan punches harder, or even as hard, as Patterson to provide evidence from their careers for this judgment.

 

It is being claimed that Patterson only has a punchers chance.

I don't see that at all.

In fact, I think it is the other way around.

Floyd is the more skilled boxer. If it went the distance I think he could get the decision.

It is Dempsey that has a puncher's chance. He is such a fast and heavy hitter however, that it is more a probability than a chance that he will take Floyd out at some point in the fight, be it early or late. But up to that piont I expect Floyd to win more rounds.