Sonny Liston's reign if Ali never existed?

Chuvalo was a major contender in 1965, how would he have done against an over the hill Liston?

 

Come on, he got KOed by Martin before his death in 69.

Martin was a low end contender who had lost to Ellis and Bonavena previously.

 

Would have loved to see Liston vs Frazier, I just see that fight being similar to Foreman - Frazier but not as quick. The style match up doesn't bode well for Frazier, I do rate Frazier highly though he was a tremendous fighter and very well could bang up Sonny but just can't picture it in my head for some reason.

If Liston didn't slack off on training he could have reigned a while longer, maybe not losing to Ali would have kept him dedicated and maybe a few close calls might have made him train more rigorously, who knows. Some of the matchups would have been interesting needless to say.

 

Yes, But this is the timeline without Ali. It would've altered a lot.

 

Not very well. Every punch Foreman really nailed Chuvalo with after stunning the Canadian was a head knocking jab. With Sonny, it would have been a matter of styles, and probably a pretty easy bout before he won a stoppage on facial damage, or lopsided decision. Hanging with Liston in competition required either mobility or getting underneath him, and we never saw either of that with Chuvalo.

Without getting cut, Wepner would have had no problems reaching the final bell with Liston, and Henry Clark's face was fine after seven rounds of action, but neither bout was close, nor was Leotis before Sonny's abrupt downturn in the eighth.

Liston-Chuvalo might have looked like Sonny's stoppage of George Johnson, with Chuvalo advancing while Liston retreated behind straight shots from such long range that Chuvalo would not be able to connect in return.

 

Well, if there's no Ali, then the title probably isn't split.

So Liston probably fights Patterson and maybe even Archie Moore in 1963.

In 1964, Ernie Terrell (who was on a winning streak) would probably be the top contender and gets a shot. Cleveland Williams and Zora Folley would also be in line. One, two or all three may have gotten a crack ... depending on how badly Liston and his backers needed money.

In 1965, Karl Mildenberger was making waves in Europe. Like it or not, Floyd Patterson would be a top contender again. I don't know if there's a third Liston-Patterson fight. But Floyd would be right there.

In 1966, who knows. If Eddie Machen still outpoints Quarry, maybe Machen gets a return bout ... this time for the title. But he was on his last legs at that point.

In 1966, Tony Alongi and Amos Johnson might be in line. Jose Torres, the light heavyweight champion, may have talked his way into a bout.

By the end of 1967, Joe Frazier was a top contender, Jerry Quarry was a rising star on the West Coast at that time, as well, and Bonavena was right there. Same with Buster Mathis.

Five years into his title reign, who knows what Liston would've been like. Whoever got there first - Quarry, Bonavena or Frazier - may have become champ. Liston-Mathis in 1967 might have been tough for Sonny, too.

Liston, as the undisputed champ for years in the 1960s, with no real threats around him, could've excelled beyond everyone's wildest dreams.

Or, Liston with no threats to his title, may have become a junkie even quicker and maybe he's dead by 1967?

Or, the mob may have wanted Terrell to be the champ in 1964, and Liston may have quit against him, too. Who knows?

I don't think he beats Frazier and makes it all the way to Foreman, regardless.

 

Did either Ali or Machen ever give their thoughts on Frazier vs. Liston?

 

Don't know about Machen but when asked how, Frazier, Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena, Spencer, would fair with Liston, Ali replied ""Sonny can lick all them cats!"

 

:good

That before or after Manila?

 

I believe this was during his exile. I'll check though as I'm not to sure myself.

 

Ali wasn't involved in the Martin fight.

Liston had just deteriorated on his own to the point that he was knocked out by a lower end contender.

Liston's reign isn't going to 1970, if he's losing to a guy like Martin.

 

I believe It was more of a dominoe effect. Without Ali, Liston would've still been champion. Their would've been no WBC tournament, etc.

Liston did deteriorate but that wasn't the only reason he lost to Martin. He came down with the flu days before the bout. It started to really take it's toll on him later in the fight.

 

Can't argue with this logic.

 

Agree 100%.

He would have kept that title for at least one year though two years were likelier. Ultimately his reckless lifestyle would have eroded his once great skills and strengths. I believe Ernie Terrell or Doug Jones (who went a full 15 with Terrell) would have defeated him by then.

 

Agreed