Floyd Patterson vs Jack Dempsey

Floyd’s problem in terms of the score cards is that he would have to sacrifice points, in order to prolong his survival.

The more he tries to win, the quicker Dempsey will get him.

 

I guess that it comes down to what you would accept as evidence.

There were a whole slew of murderous punchers from Patterson’s era, who do not have signature knockout wins of the same quality.

How would you construct a case for Cleveland Williams or Mac Foster hitting harder than Patterson, from their respective knockout wins.

I treat individual fighter testimony with scepticism, but if a consensus emerges in the era that a given fighter was a puncher, I tend to trust that consensus.

 

Yes because tunney faced a prime dempsey

 

"what you would accept as evidence"

KO percentage and knocking out top men would be a good starting point.

"murderous punchers from the Patterson era who do not have signature knockout wins of the same quality"

I assume this refers to the quality of Patterson's KO wins, and I agree. Patterson has more impressive KO wins than Williams or Foster. Jerry Quarry stood up to Foster's best punch, but Patterson did knock him down.

But Williams (Terrell & Miteff & Alonzo Johnson) and Foster (Folley, Williams, Rischer, Ros) have far more impressive KO's to their credit than Brennan has.

I just see no comparison at all between Brennan and Patterson.

Patterson might have been a so-so champion in the big scheme of things, but I agree with Berlenbach that he is being wildly underrated by some here. He was good enough to be near the top of the ratings for two decades and to have beaten champion level fighters.

Brennan appears off his record to have been a fair contender type who rose to the occasion in 1920 to give Dempsey an unexpectedly tough fight.

 

Brennan didn't fight defensively against Dempsey. He did quite a good job of neutralising him, which isn't the same thing, was ahead on the cards after ten rounds, and also hurt him. A middling heavyweight contender who had recently lost four times to a middleweight can do that, but Patterson can't? Patterson could counterpunch too by the way.

That's arguable too. How many times he did he have to knock Firpo down before he actually finished him off.

There's not much reason to be doubtful, unless you have a lot of faith in Dempsey's ex-wife, in which case do you also believe all the other unflattering claims she made about him? Dempsey himself never said it was a fix and nor do the next day fight reports.

The point is an obese 5'8 opponent lasted a total of 20 rounds with Dempsey, and caused him problems with an awkward, busy, fast handed style that Dempsey never really mastered in five attempts. You can say Meehan only had to last four rounds, yet he did it five times, taking everything Dempsey could throw at him even though Dempsey was supposed to be at his most lethal in the early rounds. Meehan could survive the Dempsey onslaught, last many rounds with him, out-land him, and Patterson couldn't?

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On what basis do you think Brennan hit harder? Who were his best KO wins against? At best, there's probably not much to choose between their power. Bottom line, if Brennan could hurt Dempsey, so could Patterson.

You can say Brennan was more durable though Patterson (mostly) survived a better standard of opposition than Brennan faced. Had Brennan had seven fights against Liston, Ali and Johansson, I'd expect him to have a few more KO defeats.

Brennan also broke his ankle in the first fight. He said had it not been for his injury he'd have given Dempsey a tougher fight, and proved that in the rematch.

Dempsey completely dominated except when he was staggered, dropped, put out of the ring and damn near KO'd. So Patterson had less power than Firpo. He still had enough to KO heavyweight contenders, enough to keep Dempsey honest. He was also light years ahead of Firpo in ability, speed, accuracy and skill, and frankly it was proven against better opposition than Firpo faced.

If a very limited slugger (did Firpo even possess a jab?) could do that, why couldn't a superior fighter with power do better?​

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So having a 2 inch bigger chest makes all the difference? Patterson actually had bigger fists than Dempsey (according to Gilbert Odd's Kings of the Ring). Sure Willie Meehan weighed 190lbs too but in his case it was obvious where the extra pounds were. Patterson was hardly soft or flabby.

Patterson was bigger than Marciano by every measurement. Would you say he was bigger than Marciano, or that Marciano was a light-heavy?

Can you forgive Frazier for losing to Foreman? He was just outmatched against Liston who, to use your argument, beats Dempsey by most measurements including being a solid 25lbs heavier.

In which case Patterson survived one of the best right hands of all time twice. It hardly proves a serious lack of durability, especially as Ingo also flattened Machen, who is generally credited as a very tough hombre.

So, was Joe Louis not that durable?

But in context, a flash knockdown against a heavier opponent in a fight he otherwise dominated. If Dempsey was decked by light-hitting Tunney, wouldn't you worry about what Patterson might to do him? If Dempsey could be hurt by 170lb Carpentier and hurt, dropped and put out of the ring by wild swinging Firpo, what might a faster, more skilful Patterson do to him?

Because that fight really is a mismatch. Dempsey wouldn't have the kind of advantages over Patterson that Foreman would. Plus Foreman destroyed what was essentially a more formidable version of Patterson in Frazier. The same can't be said of Dempsey.

Gibbons wasn't really a defensive specialist. At one point he was known as a KO artist with a long string of knockouts. He just fought conservatively against Dempsey. I wonder if Gibbons would still be credited with a granite chin if he'd faced Liston, Ali, Moore, Johansson, Quarry and Bonavena a few times. He was also a genuine light-heavyweight, had recently lost to a middleweight, and still won the first half of the fight. Dempsey struggled against Gibbons yet he's just going to walk through Patterson?

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Of course there is. Patterson would be one of the best fighters Dempsey faced. He had KO power, terrific handspeed and skill, a combination that Dempsey never encountered. They were about the same size. Dempsey lost, was hurt, dropped or otherwise struggled with a variety of fighters. Patterson's durability is underrated since it was only Liston who completely walked through him and Liston was about two weight classes bigger than Dempsey. To maintain that Patterson doesn't have a chance here is absurd. ​

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You talk of styles as if there was only one style that could trouble Dempsey and everything else was guaranteed defeat. Yet Meehan, Gibbons, Firpo, Brennan, Tunney et al were different fighters with different styles and attributes and all troubled him in different ways.

Why can't Patterson survive Dempsey's onslaught? Because he couldn't survive Liston's? I've already said why I disagree with that contention. He certainly could get him first as his handspeed would negate Dempsey's reach advantage. ​

 

I'm not turning Patterson into Brennan. I'm saying Patterson was better than Brennan. You're turning Brennan into Jimmy Young. He didn't fight defensively against Dempsey. He stood toe to toe with him, hurt him, and was winning the fight after ten rounds. Patterson was faster than Brennan. He was more talented than Brennan. He was more accomplished than Brennan. He was about the same size as Brennan. I'd say he hit harder than Brennan (certainly his power was more proven), but because he didn't fight exactly like Brennan he couldn't do as well as he did?

After a life or death tussle in which he got damn near KO'd.

So again, do you believe the other claims Dempsey's wife made about him?

Then he's survived the fabled Dempsey onslaught when Dempsey was supposed to be most dangerous, and the part of the fight when most of Dempsey's victories occurred.

Patterson was more elusive than you're giving him credit for. Watch his last fight against Ali at age 37. He makes him miss quite a lot. As for Meehan he was aggressive and active enough to win the decision. One account of their last fight said Meehan landed 90% of the punches. That was two months after Dempsey's KO of Fulton. In another of their fights he was said to have "made a bum out of the Salt Lake champion." However you spin it, Dempsey clearly had some issues dealing with Meehan.

And Patterson was only stopped by two all-time great heavyweights who dwarfed him, and a guy with one of the best right hands in history (your description) whom he later KO'd twice. How do you see Brennan doing against those three?

Then you obviously think more of Firpo than I do. Most of his mystique actually comes from giving Dempsey a big scare. What was his best actual KO or knockdown that demonstrated his top end power, a 40-something Willard or a shot Brennan?

Bear in mind that most of the photos of them together would have been after Marciano retired when he put on a lot of weight. Patterson's measurements were bigger than Marciano's.

Regardless, I don't think being an inch taller and having a two inch bigger chest gives Dempsey some significant advantage.

Particularly for fights involving Frazier and Foreman.

What would have been your blueprint for Patterson to beat Liston?

You could also say exactly the same about Dempsey. He had five attempts at cracking Meehan and couldn't do it. Likewise after losing in lop-sided fashion against Tunney he came back and lost again in exactly the same fashion, long count aside.

So did Dempsey.

Yet others did stand up to it. Dempsey didn't walk through everyone. Again, I don't buy the argument that Dempsey would simply repeat what Liston did. Sonny would have a solid 25lbs on Dempsey.

I'm of the opinion that Louis' durability is underrated too. But the point stands that he was knocked down a lot, not always against all-time greats either, and got KO'd a couple of times. Rademacher aside, the men who were knocking down Patterson were also ranked in the top ten. But as Pacquiao found with Marquez, putting him down and keeping him down were two different things.

But they got to him, hurt him, dropped him and one almost knocked him out.

Nor can you. You've been building up Patterson's weaknesses whilst downplaying those of Dempsey and his opponents. You've got Brennan having a very good chin because he was only KO'd by Dempsey in his prime (which other punchers did he face?), and Patterson having a questionable chin when four of his five KO losses were against all-time great heavies who very likely would have flattened Brennan too.

Handspeed is a physical advantage too and that's clearly Patterson's.

Dempsey did struggle with Gibbons. He was losing at the halfway point. His vaunted devastating onslaught was not in evidence. Bear in mind that Gibbons weighed 175lbs, faded in the second half of the fight, and had been thrashed by Greb not long before.

The way you put it, only men who actually fought Dempsey (or fought exactly like the men who fought Dempsey) could have any success against him. You mention Patterson being a swarmer as if that dooms him (can you name the talented, powerful and fast-handed 190lb swarmers that Dempsey actually defeated?), yet I'm not sure I'd even describe him as a swarmer. More of a boxer/puncher. Certainly post-Liston he boxed more.

 

Some here underrate the power of Dempsey. The guy could bang big time. Could Floyd beat prime Louis? Most would feel Louis power would be to much for Patterson to handle. Dempsey hit harder than Louis.

Sharkey who fought both Dempsey and Louis felt Dempsey was the harder puncher. "I never thought anyone could hit that hard".

Prime Dempsey works his way in close, Patterson was not fleet of foot, and ends the bout quickly. Body shots followed by a short hook to the jaw puts Floyd to sleep within three rounds, perhaps sooner.

 

You say stupid things with impunity. I bet that makes you happy.

 

Dempsey would maul him. Mismatch.

 

The whater Dempsey? Did you really write the quicker Dempsey?

Hope your new eyeb alls are arriving in the mail soon.