So Mayweather is essentially retired...

And none of those guys are top 20 ATG's except Louis. To be ranked in the top 20 is extreme greatness.

 

I guarantee you if Mayweather had easily beaten Pacquiao from 2003-2009 that would have been a career defining win.

Jones badly outpointed Toney and it's respected as a legendary victory out of this world win.

 

Dude, send the video!
Pacquiao also has 120m more reasons to be less hungry. Bradley looked very disciplined in general and very conscious his positioning throughout his last fight, rather than the floppy unbalanced fish he was vs Pacquiao Bradley is going to score a few round winning left hooks.
Cotto is kinda the gatekeeper to the greats, and that's not a term meant with disrespect.

 

No, the Toney win is regarded similarly to Floyd over Pac; it's just more aged. Toney was drained, claiming to be sick, etc. Imo none of those excuses nor Pac's shoulder had much effect on the outcomes of those matches.

 

I think you're in the minority here.

 

:-(


1. Pacquiao is an offensive fighter - they don't last as long as defensive fighters.
2. Pacquiao's style relies a lot on athletic ability - alas Pac was forced to resort more towards pure boxing from 2012.
3. Pacquiao has a history starting at light flyweight - smaller guys don't last long in the sport.
4. Pacquiao has been in so many wars. It's easy to forget, but watch his fights again and you'll see how brutal they were. He's truly war torn. Again, thinking back, RING AGE is key. Go and compare the Pacquiao who from the Barrera, Morales and Cotto fight, to the Mayweather fight. They're two different animals.
5. Pacquiao was known to be past prime by 2011. He beat Mosley who was just a punchbag that fight, but looked so unimpressive in victory. He lost that 'killer instinct' lol.
6. Pacquiao IMO lost the third fight against Marquez, he's sliding.
7. KTFO6. This took away the little greatness that remained with regards to his H2H ability. Fighters never return the same after arguably the biggest KO in boxing history.
8. All of this results in the May-Pac fight. A gun shy Pac who lost the very thing that made him so great against the bigger, hard hitting guys, was just faded and lifeless against Mayweather.
9. Pac had a rotator cuff injury, which led to a surgery. Mayweather had a torn rotator cuff against Castillo, and Castillo beat Mayweather up and in the opinion of most, beat Mayweather. Now, Mayweather beat him in a close but convincing manner in the rematch. That does give an indication over the importance of a healthy rotator cuff.

All of these factors merged together form a significant whole. It will never be seen as a 'great' win among any serious boxing circles now and in the near or distant future.

 

Badly outpointed him? Roy embarrassed James.

Floyd never done such a thing. He still fought VERY timidly against an inured Manny.

 

That's a very sympathetic view, but not based in reality. Pac looked fine against Algieri and Bradley leading up to the fight. A rotator cuff injury can actually be ****yzed based on performance. You can't will yourself through the injury like a broken hand. He used the arm throughout the fight without restriction, therefore it was a partial tear (he'd had longterm). You saw him raise his arms after the fight. I've torn my rotator cuff and there's no way I would've done that. Regarding starting weightclass, he started as a teenager and ended as a full welter. I'm not gonna look up Floyd's am results but he wasn't a big guy as a teen. He's also the older of the two.

 

Your views are not based on reality, but directly from Mayweather's vas deferens tbh.

Being semi-shot does not mean you're cab driver level. Case in point, completely shot Morales vs Maidana. Pac is still a HOF'er in terms of H2H ability, but no longer an ATG in H2H ability.

Pac didn't look so good against Bradley.

This is the difference between you and a champion, in all fairness. They can will themselves through a broken hand. Lomachenko won the World Amateur Championships breaking his hand in the first fight, having conceding only 7 points in the whole tournament.
Hearns broke his hand in the first round and continued in a war against one of boxing's ultimate warriors, Hagler until he got knocked out.
Muhammad Ali got his jaw broken and went on to win, the list will go on forever.
It's funny you say that, because Floyd used his injured rotator cuff an awful lot more in his first fight against Castillo - and that's a fact.

Being the older of the two again means jack all, ring age is everything. Pipino Cuevas was past it by 24 for example. This is boxing.

The proof is in the pudding, watch Manny's earlier fights and then compare to more recent fights.

Regarding Manny's weights, there is a truth in that he was big for his smallest weight classes, but this is overestimated because he was small enough to be able to make those weight classes - and he didn't cut weight in his early career with PED's because he couldn't afford anything of the sort. What he did from 140 onwards defied logic. He should have been KTFO and retired by 140. He wasn't MEANT to beat Hatton, nor Cotto, nor Clottey, nor Margarito, nor Bradley. This is the stuff of legends.
He makes 147 although disadvantaged with a tiny frame. On paper, if it wasn't for Manny defying logic, Mayweather SHOULD have KFTO Pacquiao.

 

Yup, there's a boxing masterclass, and then there's just embarrassment aka Roy vs Toney.

It's such a shame that Floyd delayed this fight. 2015 Pacquiao sounds like a comedic phrase. This fight in 2009-2010 could have potentially been Floyd's ATG, legacy defining win; I think in 2009-2010 it would have been a 50:50 fight. Floyd would have needed more than just a couple of extra jabs per round and slight ring generalship to beat that Pac.

 

Who did Manny ever lose to as one sidely as Floyd?

Btw we were talking about rotator cuffs not hands. You can't fight through a serious rotator cuff injury.

 

:good

I think Manny beats him back then, I really do.

Way too much offence for Floyd, and Floyd needs room to do his thing. Ain't happening against that Manny, he was as undeterred as they come back then.

Manny was everything that Floyd would avoid when he was in the driving seat.

He wasn't slow of hand and foot, he wasn't over the hill, he wasn't inexperienced or new to the big show.

Floyd would have to be the aggressor - And that suits Manny to the tee. Add in his extraordinary cardio, output, his angles, hand speed, combinations, toughness and determination to win? Floyd loses.

There's a reason it happened in 2015 and not 4-5 years earlier...

 

Yep, great depth, that had us begging for a pinnacle.

Here ya go:

http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=556873

Gatekeeper to the greats is a perfect way of putting it.

Marquez 3 was a better performance than Floyd's negative pot-shotting. He landed harder punches and got driven to the ropes less, and never got stunned by a big left like Floyd did. Against a pre-KO'd Pacquiao. The round distribution was also similar. So there's your answer. Aside from Morales, the obvious one. That was a thorough beating.

 

Pacquiaos H2H ability was so great that a diminished Pacquiao is still a world class fighter.

Totally shot Morales was still better than 98 percent of fighters out there. Get the point.

You can't possibly think post KTFO Pacquiao was prime. If you do then everybody here is wasting their time.

 

Hehe, truth. Morales's past prime performances were impressive. I wonder what would have happened if the first Garcia fight didn't have corrupt and open scoring?