Larry Holmes v Joe Frazier's opponents circa 1968-75

I'd pick Holmes to beat them all with Muhammad Ali being a 50/50 bet.

 

Ali was barred from boxing at just 25 years old ,and came back at 29,.It is my contention and that of his trainer that the 4 years in between would have been his prime. You snicker all you want.

 

Yeah the big difference is Frazier was a much better fighter than ****ey. Without Ali's exile we would have also seen the pair fight a few years before the FOTC.

 

Yeah considering how great he was both before AND after that layoff period, its hard not to think that he might have been even better in the interim had things panned out differently. Imagine Muhammad Ali around 27 years of age in say 1969 and after compiling the experience of 14 or 15 title bouts. I honestly think that if this had been the course of history, Joe Frazier would have been been thought of as little more than a Zora Folley type contender... Of course there is always a danger that he might have grown lazy or complacent but that generally wasn't an issue for him.

 

History showed Ali did get lazy and complacent in his second career, there's a good chance he would have if he never got banned. I wouldn't say Ali looked brilliant against Folley either, he was getting tagged plenty of times by the old challenger. Another point off topic, everbody brings up the Phantom Punch and insist Liston took a dive but what about Folley, his knockout loss looks very suspicious to me....

 

I dont disagree with Patterson or Chuvalo, all they are saying is Ali was better circa 1965 compared to 1972, which is after the Frazier fight.

I'm saying that by 1971 Ali was where he would have been had he never been away. Still great. Ali stopped two of the best contenders out there on the way to that fight. He was more active than Frazier was.

At the end of the day there is not much to fault about a prime Joe Frazier. Anybody can only fault him AFTER he beat the greatest heavyweight of all time.

 

Its a possibility but I think the flat performances in his second career had more to do with diminished conditioning due to old age rather than laziness. And Zora Folley was crafty fighter who fared well early, but Ali ultimately finished decisively. A hypothetical 1968-1969 version of Muhammad would also have been more experienced while fully matured and physically primed.

 

It would have been a continuation of a prime we already saw. That's all. By 1971 Ali would be the same man Frazier did fight.

Watch the Folley fight. It was a more measured performance. Less dancing for dancing sake. Ali was maturing already. And let's not forget it was easier looking great against the aging Williams, Folley, Patterson, Cooper and London who were 1950s fighters still trading in a later era. Mildenburger, Chuvalo and Terrell were the new guys he fought and these were Ali's slightly less breathtakig performances anyway.

 

The flip side to that is Ali tended to fight at his opponents level and rarely went all out against a fighter...

 

Ali was better than Holmes over all anyway.

So My saying Frazier was Ali's Co0ney is fair so far as I am concerned.

If Holmes was able to produce his best win over C0oney slightly post prime so is Ali in 1971. After all in 1974 Ali did produce a win of absolute greatness.

This talk of Ali being too rusty for Frazier is nonsense. He was more active and had more recent championship level competition than the champion did over the previous year.

 

What's that got to do with Frazier?

 

Nice way to cut corners. But Frazier had fought exactly twelve times over the four year duration that Muhammad Ali had fought TWICE. Not to mention Ali looking absolutely flat footed and sluggish in his very last meeting with Bonavena. taking that much time off from the ring does all kinds of things to timing, stamina, muscle memory and other things.. Frazier didn't need to fight as much in the previous 12 months to compensate for what Ali had missed for years.

 

What're you talking about? :huh He had less than 18 rounds in the last 4 years.

 

My point is you said Ali wasn't really dancing and such in his fights prior to his exile, as though he was slipping slightly athletically. My point is he more than likely had a lot more in the tank than he showed. Fighting Frazier would have brought out the best in him.

 

Holmes goes undefeated.

No version of Ali past 67 beats Holmes. No way no how.

Foreman was too crude and would get outboxed.