What is the lowest justifiable ranking for Ali?

I'm in tune with your thoughts, only due to the fact that spelt it out for me It's a real shame Bowe never met Tyson or Lewis in the ring, A lot of the time it seems to be one of the main components that separates this era from the 'golden' era or even when comparing fighters and contenders from both.

 

Muhammad Ali is, was & always will be !!!THE GREATEST !!!!!
THe lowest he could rank would be joint #1 with Sugar Ray Robinson

 

What everyone seems to forget is We were denied 3 1/2 years of Ali in his prime , What would he have accomplished had he not been banned for PURELY POLITICAL REASONS!!!! Don't call the draft dodger BS either
Don't forget a certain William Jefferson Clinton fled to England to avoid the draft. His punishment ? He was made President of the United States
Ali stayed right here & faced the music he never ran. I cannot say I agree with his religious beliefs but I do admire the way he stood up for them

 

That probably would have shifted Ali's 70's decline 3 1/2 years earlier, since years of training are what put most of the mileage onto fighters. Ali had already been a pro for seven years when he "lost" his belt to politics.

If Ali kept training at a professional level without interruptions from 1967 onward, we'd probably see a decline setting in by '69 or '70 comparable to Ali's real life decline post '72/3.

That puts him in the crosshairs for a prime Frazier. If he catches Frazier by '68 or early '69, Ali might do better than he did in the real-life FOTC, but then again, maybe not. He wouldn't be "up" for it quite as much as Frazier would be, and the evidence we have from FOTC was pretty decisive. Frazier probably beats him in their first meeting. In any case, Frazier would remain primed and hungry until at least '71 or '72, which means that Frazier easily takes any rematch against a version of Ali who would look more like the Ali who went up against Foreman. Or worse.

By the time Foreman comes along in '74, Ali's extra 3 1/2 years of mileage would have him looking more like '77 Ali. No way that Ali regains the title.

So the question becomes whether Ali could fill the '67-ish to '69-ish period with enough title challengers to surpass the record that he actually obtained in reality.

I doubt it. Even if Ali defends his title four times a year, he's probably only going to buzzsaw his way through the same guys that our version of Ali dispatched: Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena, Mathis, Patterson (who'd probably do better against Ali in our late 60's scenario than he did in their real-life second meeting), etc. Plus, there's no way a declining Ali regains the title against a prime Frazier or a prime Foreman. Nor can he wait around to feast on the comparatively weak late '70s division.

Ali might hang around and beat contenders for a while, but he eventually retires. He probably remains a disputed #2 or #3 of all time rather than jostling with Joe Louis for the top spot.

The major beneficiaries from this are Foreman and -- oddly -- Patterson, who'd still be the only heavyweight champion to ever regain the title. Since Foreman wouldn't have been derailed by Ali, he probably enjoys a successful title reign before losing to Larry Holmes and retiring quietly in the late 70s with nothing left to prove. (The butterfly effect eliminates the fluky Lewis / Rahman fight entirely.)

So the layoff probably helped Ali. It preserved him for the Foreman fight, which is essential to his legacy.

 

Weren't you banned like 10/years ago

 

No. :huh

 

Good post. And Plausible.:good

 

Thanks.

 

I believe you are missing the boat. Ali prior to his exile of nearly four years was a young man. He was not in any real tough bouts one exception being Chuvalo 1 where he took a hellacious boxing attack. As of his last title defense there was little wear or tear in Ali physically. Ali had yet to hit his peak! I see no one who beats Ali from 68-73. Ali probably fights Frazier prior to 71 and he fights Joe as an in shape prime hwt champion not the rusty fighter who had to stand against the ropes to rest after six rounds. I do not see Ali having any issues beating Foreman in say 1973. Norton may have had to get through Frazier or Foreman to get a title shot and I don't see him doing that. So perhaps Ali never fights Norton. IMO the more than likely scenario is that Ali clears the field and retires sometime prior to 1974 as hwt champion. One has to remember that the ring rust he gathered during that nearly four year time frame led to his ropeadope methodology in his second career. It was the use of this strategy that led to Ali taking too many shots and resulting ring aging and more than likely the condition he has today. Take away that hiatus and you will see Ali as a boxing master until the end of his carreer in 73-74.

 

It's true that Ali wasn't in many tough fights during his first reign, but sparring puts much more mileage on a fighter than the actual fight itself. (Which makes sense; Wladimir Klitschko, who probably didn't spar as much as most fighters in the 1970s did, was putting in an average of 120 rounds of sparring for each 12 round fight under Steward).

Now, you might still argue that this hypothetical Ali would be younger, and therefore not quite as susceptible to getting worn down in sparring. That's a fair point. The answer to that objection is more debatable, but there has been statistical work done in other combat sports showing that age erodes a fighter's talent much less than sparring "mileage" does.

On that note, a fighter starts declining around 9 years of professional level training...which was pretty close to '74 for comeback Ali, and around '69/'70 for our hypothetical version.

Note too that the mileage-over-age rule has support from Ali's own career. Remember that Ali was basically done at 35, which isn't young, but it's not supposed to be decrepit, either. Ali started boxing young, got the championship young, and put himself through high volumes of training to become the athlete he was in his prime. It makes sense that he started declining early.

I guess there's still the plus that this hypothetical Ali wouldn't use the rope-a-dope in sparring quite as early, so he gets a little boost there. But he'll probably have to start using it by '70 anyway, because the speed, timing, and stamina will begin to slip as the mileage adds up.

 

Ali's demise came from his four year layoff which then caused him to change tactics. He began taking many more punches in sparring and in the ring because he became a static target. This fact cannot be over emphasized. Take that away and Ali easily fights into his early 30's as a dancing boxing master. There would be no ropeadope, Ali would not be damaged and we would still today be enjoying his patter from ringside of major bouts.

 

Ali had 18 championship level rounds against the best available contenders, Bonavena and Quary, to warm up for Frazier. It was perfect prep for that challenge at 29 years of age.

Two big fights within five months. Three training camps by the time he meets Frazier. Joe only did two rounds and one camp within 11 months himself!

Nobody can turn the clock back to make a 29 year old 25 again but Ali was possibly where he would have been by 1971 if he had not been away. I dont think it unfair to say that.

 

The lowest you can rank Muhammad Ali "justifiably" is number-two (behind Joe Louis). That's about it.

Even when Muhammad Ali wasn't at his best anymore in the 1970s, and even when he turned up out of shape, the best fighters of the era who got in their best shape to fight him in the biggest fights of their lives usually lost in pretty clear fashion (Foreman, Frazier, Lyle, Quarry, Shavers, Bonavena, Bugner and on and on).

He'll certainly fall lower than that in the years to come. I'm sure someone will burst onto the scene at some point and become the next best heavyweight ever. But, for right now, he's number one or number two. No less.

 

I couldn't disagree more. And actually it was THREE FIGHTS IN FOUR AND A HALF MONTHS ... not two in five months.

Ali was off for close to four years. (Closer to four years than three).

He was looking at five years in prison. He lost every court case. He had his passport taken away. He has dead broke. He was borrowing money from everyone. His case was set to go before the Supreme Court in the summer of 1971. If they agreed with all the other courts below them, he was going to go to prison until 1976.

And a comeback in 1977, after a four-ban from the sport, and five years in prison ... wasn't looking like a solid plan for the future.

Ali was trapped. But he got a license back basically because people decided they wanted to make some quick money off him before they never saw him again.

So he got a license in Georgia and signed to fight the number-one contender (Quarry) over 15 rounds at the end of October. He won that, then immediately signed to fight another 15-rounder in New York against the number-three contender Bonavena FIVE WEEKS later. And he won that. And then he signed to fight Joe Frazier for the title in early March (three months later).

They all had to hurry, because if there were any delays, the fight wouldn't come off.

Ali didn't want to fight three times in a couple of months. He had to, because he was broke, and it was his last chance.

Then he lost to Frazier. And he was expected to lose in the Supreme Court and go to jail. But they surprised everyone by voting in his favor. And he got a second life.

But there was nothing IDEAL about that situation at all. Nothing.

Not a single thing.

It certainly wasn't the "perfect prep" after nearly four years out of the ring and with a long, seemingly inevitable prison sentence staring him in the face.

 

That's just stupid.

After five months being an active fighter AFTER four years of having no bouts and little training there is no way Ali was the same fighter he was post exile. Ali stated this and it's just plain obvious by watching him. He did not have the conditioning to fight at a high level and his prime as an athlete was behind him.