Jack Johnson Will He Be Pardoned?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mcvey, Feb 5, 2016.


  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I assume he has done more research on the subject than just about anyone, just as I would be inclined to take your word on a debate on Harry Greb.
    Any comments on Mendoza saying Tunney wanted a 6th fight with Greb but Harry did not? [See Corbett thread].
     
  2. Berlenbach

    Berlenbach Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I don't really see the point. Johnson died 70 years ago. His conviction was over 100 years ago. A pardon does him no good. Very few of the general public today even know who he was. If it happens it will only be for current political purposes, an opportunity for someone to make political capital out of something they had nothing to do with anyway.
     
  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    A criminal charge is a very specific thing.

    It doesn’t matter what bad things the somebody has done previously, or has been accused of doing.

    The only thing that matters in court is whether the charge in question, was proved beyond reasonable doubt (not balance of probability).

    Before the charges were even brought to bear, the police should have considered whether it was in the public interest to proceed.

    It should have been pretty clear from the circumstances of the arrest , that it was not.

    Virtually any sporting figure of the period could have been prosecuted on that basis, had the authorities set out to do it.

    Pardon
     
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    If you don’t see the point, then do a search on “respectful debates between McVea and Mendoza”!
     
  5. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Everything you ever needed to know about Johnson's criminal trial, the facts that led up to it, the testimony and evidence allowed, the law, the judge's instructions to the jury, the prosecutor's post-trial comments, and the ruling of the appellate court is all in my book, In the Ring With Jack Johnson - Part II: The Reign. It is the most thorough discussion of the Mann Act trial and issues ever. I obtained the entire trial transcript.
     
  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    EXACTEMENT!
    ps When is the new John L Sullivan biography due out?
     
  7. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The new Sullivan book should be published sometime in March.
     
  8. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Under the letter of the law and the spirit under which it was written Johnson was guilty. Its been repeated and repeated that that the law was created to get johnson, that it was a jim crow law, that johnson was unfairly prosecuted and even that he was the only person ever prosecuted by this law. None of the above is even close to true. In fact he was more guilty than several others prosecuted under the Mann act. If Johnson is pardoned then everyone else convicted of it should be pardoned as well. Personally i think our legislators have better things to do than waste their time which is funded by our money by righting a supposed wrong of an over 100 yr old case 70 years after johnsons death. Exactly what does it accomplish which is totally besides the point of whether or not this guy even deserves it.
     
  9. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    I could give about as much a **** if Johnson is pardoned as Jack himself could. It's political window dressing. How about hanging the ****suckers who allowed poisoned water to flow in Flint, Michigan first. That would make me clap my hands.
     
  10. Vanboxingfan

    Vanboxingfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I'm on the fence about this. He was prosecuted for supposedly taking some across state lines for the purpose of prostitution. Is he guilty. It depends. I think a lot of girls he hung around with were prostitutes but l don't think he profited by it, more likely he subsized it. But to be honest l've never researched the Statute regarding this offense. As to the wisdom of the law itself it's a bit like questioning prohibition today. In hindsite it's a stupid law but it was the law at the time. Was it used for political purposes? Probably. So a pardon wouldn't bother me but l'm watching death stories on CNN as l write this and there's a lot more injustices of a serious nature that go as far as executing innocent people that l think warrant investigation and pardons.
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Under that law, which was brought in to stop white- slavery,every man who travelled across a state line with his girl friend and had *** with her afterwards was guilty and liable for prosecution.
    How many were in fact prosecuted?

    Many fighters of the era and earlier consorted with prostitutes,Sullivan ,Corbett,
    Langford ,its hardly unique to Johnson. The only boxer I can think of that pimped women,though I'm sure there were /are others,[Stevenson?] was Monzon.

    Johnson was guilty of two things,imo ,sleeping with a white woman he later married, and beating the sh*t out of the White man's champion Jim Jeffries. I just posted this thread as I thought it might have gone un-noticed.
    Now we are into the current electoral campaigns?:huh
     
  12. Vanboxingfan

    Vanboxingfan Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Not really arguing that an injustice was committed it's just that in the scheme of things you don't have to go back 70+ years to find injustice it's happening today and in some cases the penalties are far worse. There are certainly innocent people on death row for example.
     
  13. Berlenbach

    Berlenbach Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Two white men, Farley Drew Caminetti and Maury Diggs, were both prosecuted under the Mann Act at the same time Johnson was, and both served prison sentences. They'd done little more than take their mistresses away for the weekend. Luis Firpo, Frank Lloyd Wright and Charlie Chaplin amongst others also fell foul of it.
     
  14. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Wow a total of two! Out of how many would you say that was? Chaplin was acquitted of taking a girl from LA to NY for illicit ***ual purposes a charge of which he was undeniably guilty.Didn't Firpo marry his mistress to avoid prosecution? Same as Johnson did , but with a different result.

    Congress passes the Mann Act, also known as the White Slave Traffic Act, which was ostensibly aimed at keeping innocent girls from being lured into prostitution, but really offered a way to make a crime out of many kinds of consensual ***ual activity.
    The outrage over &#8220;white slavery&#8221; began with a commission appointed in 1907 to investigate the problem of immigrant prostitutes. Allegedly, women were brought to America for the purpose of being forced into ***ual slavery; likewise, immigrant men were allegedly luring American girls into prostitution.
    The Congressional committees that debated the Mann Act did not believe that a girl would ever choose to be a prostitute unless she was drugged and held hostage. The law made it illegal to &#8220;transport any woman or girl&#8221; across state lines &#8220;for any immoral purpose.&#8221; In 1917, the Supreme Court upheld the conviction of two married California men, Drew Caminetti and Maury Diggs, who had gone on a romantic weekend getaway with their girlfriends to Reno, Nevada, and had been arrested. Following this decision, the Mann Act was used in all types of cases: someone was charged with violating the Mann Act for bringing a woman from one state to another in order to work as a chorus girl in a theater; wives began using the Mann Act against girls who ran off with their husbands. The law was also used for racist purposes: Jack Johnson, heavyweight champion of the world, was prosecuted for bringing a prostitute from Pittsburgh to Chicago, but the motivation for his arrest was public outrage over his marriages to white women.
    The most famous prosecutions under the law were those of Charlie Chaplin in 1944 and Chuck Berry in 1959 and 1961, who took unmarried women across state lines for &#8220;immoral purposes.&#8221; Berry was convicted and spent two years in the prime of his musical career in jail. After Berry&#8217;s conviction, the Mann Act was enforced only sparingly, but it was never repealed. It was amended in 1978 and again in 1986; most notably, the 1986 amendments replaced the phrase &#8220;any other immoral purpose&#8221; with &#8220;any ***ual activity for which any person can be charged with a criminal offense.&#8221;


    Under the act you did not even have to be guilty of having had s*x ,just proof of intent was enough to secure a conviction. Anyone who doubts that the Act was used as the tool to punish Jack Johnson for ****ing white women and beating up Jeffries is naïve to the point of incredulity.
     
  15. Berlenbach

    Berlenbach Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Your inference was that only Johnson was targeted. He wasn't. Two obscure white guys whom the US Government had no reason to target who were also prosecuted. Do you think they were the only two?

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=RFoEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3729,5188981&hl=en

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=Q4MFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4566,3196011&hl=en

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2249&dat=19150224&id=yw0nAAAAIBAJ&sjid=hgMGAAAAIBAJ&pg=5840,4169138&hl=en

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=-VMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1887,5126430&hl=en

    And I'm sure there were many more.