Jim Corbett vs Harry Greb

What on earth are you talking about???

 

You hear “deafening silence” because you’re covering your ears. I repeatedly stated which rules I was referring to.

Here they are again: tiny gloves, extremely liberal approach to clinching. For LPR, it’s bare knuckles and grappling. The long scheduled lengths of early championship fights might also play into it.

Since I already provided some explanations of why these rules affect boxing technique throughout this thread, I’ll ask again: which of my statements exactly do you disagree with? That liberal clinching rules produce more jab and grab? That tiny gloves mess with modern glove blocking? What?

Tell me where the difficulty is, and we'll get into details on that point.

 

In all fairness, as everyone is ganging up on poor Mendoza,

there is this quote from Greb to George Barton after the 5th Tunney fight--

from boxrec

"This is the last time I'll fight this guy. He's getting too big and strong for me to handle. I could lick him at one time but not anymore. Tunney is really getting good."

Nick Bond has a slightly different quote, but basically similar

"He's getting too big and strong for me now. Let somebody else fight him for a change. He'll beat Dempsey for sure, maybe knock him out."

There is a photograph at boxrec of the two shaking hands before the fifth fight. Judge for yourself, but it seems Tunney is filling out. There is a huge size differential.

*as for the article, it seems odd for Greb to think Tunney would be interested in another fight with him at the same time Tunney was maneuvering for a fight with Dempsey.

 

Mendoza is a 22 carat c*nt.End Of.

 

In fairness,

"Mendoza why do you keep insisting Tunney suddenly grew into a heavyweight in 1925?"

Is he saying suddenly, or is it a gradual process.

"When Tunney first met Greb he was a full grown 25 year old adult male."

Yes. And at 25 full-grown males Loughran and Charles were light-heavyweights, and full-grown 25 year old male Ray Robinson was a welterweight, and full-grown 25 year old male Archie Moore a middleweight.

"So why this silly adherence to the false narrative that Tunney suddenly hit ________ at 28 and outgrew (a) Greb . . . "

One reason is Greb is quoted as saying as much to George Barton--

"That is the last time I'll fight this guy. He's getting too big and strong for me to handle. I could lick him at one time but not anymore. Tunney is really getting good."

In fairness, part of this is Greb going back, but Greb by his own words acknowledges that Tunney is getting too big and strong and good for him.

The photo of the two shaking hands before their last fight backs up Greb that Tunney was getting bigger.

Another reason is his weights.

Tunney's weights as given by boxrec

for the five Greb fights--

174 1/2
174
175
175
181

for

Levinsky--171 1/2
Carpentier--173 1/4
Gibbons--181 1/2
Dempsey--189 1/2
Dempsey--189 1/2
Heeney--192

I don't see much reason to dispute that Tunney was filling out. Why wouldn't he work on building himself up to take on Dempsey?

Now Tunney's weight did bounce up and down. He weighed 183 for Spalla, apparently trying to come in heavier, but the trend is pretty clear.

Somehow Tunney ended up a 190 pounder.

 

In response to cross, i fail to see why those gloved rules puy modern boxers at a disadvantage. Its silly and would have to assume that modern boxers somehow have softer weaker bone structure or that old time boxers hit harder to believe that smaller gloves somehow automatically put modern fighters at a disadvantage. The same with liberal clinching, which, anyone who has seen ruiz fight and only succeed via his promotional ties, can tell you isnt a sure path to success against a modern fighter, or even a middle/lhw who is overwhelmingly fast. Sorry but those "different rules" dont drastically chanfe the sport and account for old time fighters looking so bad. Lpr rules are a completely different thing and frankly a different sport all together. Greb never fought under lpr rules, unless im mistaken neither did corbett, certainly not the vast majority of his career, so why even bring that up in this discussion.

In response to edward: there were a lot of quotes attributed to greb. For instance he supposedly said after the first flowers fight that he was drawing the color line and would never face flowers again and yet he fought both allentown joe gans and flowers (arguably the two best black mw/lhw in the world at the time) in three fights after supposedly making that statement. Actions speak MUCH louder than words and while greb was quoted as suppisedly saying he wouldnt fight Tunney again he actualky agreed to terms to face him a sixth time in miami in 1926. This is supported by first hand miami sources. Furthermore, the weights you list in boxrec are wrong because there was NEVER an official weigh in for their fourth fight and no weights were given by any first hand source. It was said that Tunney weighed well over 180 pounds and other sources said that he appeared to gave at least 20 pounds on Greb and yet the majority of those sources judged greb as the victor over tunney, a padt prime greb at that. Which is exactly the point. This is a prime vs prime match of greb against corbett. By the time greb first fought tunney he was already blind in one eye and fading. Tunney didnt have a conclusive victory over Greb until 3 years later when greb was well worn, still blind in one eye and suffering a broken rib. Now, the idea that Tunney outgrew greb is silly because, as i said, he was making weight for their first few fights and could habe easily rehydrated 5 pounds in 8 eight hrs to reach Corbetts best weight (fighters today much smaller than tunnet rehydrate more than 20 pounds before fight time. Five pounds in 8 hrs done right is nothing) and likely did. He was already corbetts size in every measurement and those measurements didnt change when he fought dempsey a 4 yrs later. So, the fact is that in beating tunney Greb beat a guy who was clearly more skilled than Corbett and clearly the same size. The possibility that he might have said tunney was too big and hence wouldnt fight himx again is trumped by the fact that he agreed to fight him again and the idea that this somehow bodes ill for him against corbett is trumped by the fact that fighters were more skilled in grebs day. Whether the rules of the day necessitated corbetts style is neither here nor there because those were the only rules corbett knew. Plop Greb from 1919 in Corbetts era and Greb, fighting as he did in his era, still has an advantage, even if you make him wear small gloves and allow corbett to clinch incessantly because the gloves in grebs era werent exactly pillows and greb wasnt exactly a novice at clinching or infighting to begin with. He was enormously strong, strong enough in fact to manhandle men who were mych larger, stronger, and harder hitting than corbett and if clinching was the best corbett had to offer i have yet to see a historical source that awarded a fight based on a fighters clinching ability in the face of real fighting. These arguments foe corbett remain weak at best and pure fantasy at their worst.

 

I think Corbett had the size , speed, strength to be a very tough fight for Greb but my question is if Jim had the stamina to hang in there .. this wouldn't be a pic and move and wait for your opponent to tire like Sullivan or hobble after you like Jackson .. we all know that Greb was possibly the best conditioned fighter that ever lived and would not stop attacking .. likely neither guy could seriously hurt the other too badly .. very interesting fight ..

 

I only mentioned 15 year old Tyson because I think that even teenage, fairly new to boxing Tyson would have destroyed Corbett in an appalling mismatch. That and I can't remember ever watching any 14yo amateur heavies.

 

Great, great thread!! Thanks for the education, Lads!!!

 

Small gloves:

- 1890s fighters' punching techniques reduced the risk of hand breakage. Their punches had better alignment for the knuckles, which is one reason the straight punches are vertical.

- Modern hooks in particular have higher risk of breakage. As Tyson found out when he punched Mitch Green in a bar.

- Modern parrying is harder with tiny gloves.

- Corbett's parrying techniques make more sense with tiny gloves.

- Slipping is easier.

- The modern guard has a lot more openings without 8-12 oz. gloves as protection.

- 3-5 oz. gloves carry a lot more kick, which increases the risk of being in range. You need to be warier even with guys who'd be soft punchers with 8-12 oz. gloves.


Clinching:

- An 1890s ref would allow a lot more clinching than even Ruiz got away with.

- Even with modern refs, Ruiz managed to beat much better fighters with jab and grab. Toney and especially Jones were unusual cases that don't apply much here.

- 1890s refs allowed a lot of holding and hitting, to the point that there were manuals on how to do it well. It was an heavily trained skill, unlike today.

- 1890s punches were mostly designed to provide a transition into the clinch if they didn't land. Modern punches are mostly designed to be used in combinations.

- 1890s footwork was also designed to transition to clinches easily.

I actually agree. More on this below.

True.

True.

I brought up LPR to counter a very specific point.

A couple people repeated the old myth that fighters before Corbett were so unskilled that they just stood still and swung at each other.

That's clearly wrong. At worst, Corbett and his predecessors were highly skilled in a style that worked under LPR, but no longer worked under the new gloved rules.

 

15 year old Tyson matured faster than almost any other heavyweight in history, and he already had at least 20 pounds on Corbett.

So by mentioning Tyson, you concede that some generic 14 year old amateur wouldn't beat Corbett?

 

Honest question: Did you sincerely read my post as making such a concession or are you trying to be clever?

 

Klompin2

You made so many points I'll answer them when I have time in separate posts,

but I want to say I go with Greb in this one, but I do think the wild card is that Corbett is the significantly bigger man and that is what gives him a chance.

Size does matter and at some point a man just becomes too big regardless of technique.

Would Greb beat Jeffries? It is certainly not beyond consideration off Jeff's showings against Choynski and Fitz, but I think sheer size and power would carry the day in the end.

 

I read it as a concession, whether you considered it one or not.

If you need to bring in Tyson to prove that a decent 14 year old beats Corbett, you're stacking the deck. I wanted to determine whether you believed you could make your argument without bringing in Tyson. Can you?

 

"Now that idea that Tunney outgrew Greb is silly because, making weight in the first few fights and could have easily rehydrated."

Well, Tunney's weight for Levinsky is given as 171 1/2 for a championship bout. What is the evidence he had to dehydrate to make the 175 weight.

Also, I don't think there is any comparison with modern dehydration and rehydration.

It is hard to believe Tunney could have been using diuretics--

According to the July 2003 issue of the Journal of the American Chemical Society, the only effective diuretics in use in the 1920's were the organmercurials, "effective only when injected" and with potentially toxic side effects. Hard for me to believe Tunney was injecting to lose weight. The oral carbonic anhydrase inhibitors were introduced in the 1940's, and the thiazides later, with chlorothiazide in 1957.

So my conclusion is that dehydration in the 1920's would have had to have been done naturally by withholding fluid.

My take is if Tunney had to withhold fluid to make weight, he probably would have been significantly weakened, and so this more calls into question if Tunney was at his best for Greb than the issue of Tunney filling out over the years does.

Bottom line for me is that Tunney's weight is given as 171 1/2 in January of 1922, and 189 1/2 in September of 1926. I think he was filling out, not unusual for a fighter over that age span.