Jim Corbett vs Harry Greb

I was afraid you were being sincere.

The 14-yo amateur claim wasn't my argument to begin with (someone else made it). I would assume that there are indeed 14-year old amateurs out there who could beat Corbett but as I don't know any 14-yo heavies, I would rather not engage in an argument over it. As long as you agree with me that a 15 year old, relatively-new-to-boxing Tyson would have most likely abused and sparked out the legendary Gentleman Jim, I don't really have any quarrels with you.

 

Thanks for explaining where you stand. That's exactly what I was looking for.

If you don't want to argue the point, that's fine.

As it happens, I don't agree with you that a 15 year old Tyson sparks Gentleman Jim under turn of the century rules.

So, now that we've clarified our starting point, and the other thread gave me a good idea of where you're ranking 15 year old Tyson, I would be happy to quarrel with you over it if you're game. :hey

 

Any bodybuilder, wrestler, or boxer can tell you that you can dehydrate or cut weight in general without a diuretic, particularly when the amount you are cutting is less than 3% of your body weight like cutting from 180 to 175. This would have been easy and wouldnt have necessitated a diuretic. But that medical journal you read was wrong because there were substances and purges that fighters could and did take in the 10s and 20s to make weight. But five pounds is nothing. Like I said, if you wanna believe Tunney had a growth spurt at 28 so be it. But given he has almost identical measurements to Tunney in 1922 and was fighting in a division that didnt even exist in 1897, the odds are much more likely that he was making weight. After all, who, outside of hws, fights at their walking around weight? Nobody. I dont understand why its so believable that greb could fight at mw but was best at 165 or so, but the same cant apply to Tunney. It actually makes more sense that Tunney was cutting down. He had weighed over 175 several times years before he fought levinsky and his weight for levinsky isnt really proof of anything. Greb weighed 155 for Odowd but 155 hadnt been a healthy fighting weight for him in probably four yrs, you know, when he was 20 or 21 and still filling out, not 28.

Cross-trainer im not sure exactly what you are arguing. You are saying corbetts archaic style was developed because of the old lpr rules under which he never fought, that it was necessitated by the era. Thats debateable but even if we accept that as fact it still suggests that since its the only way he knows how to fight his style would be at a disadvantage against a fighter who had a great deal of success against larger fighters who were more modern and more experienced than corbett. This business about clinching and glove size is silly. Corbett fought under the queensberry rules which you need to familiarize yourself with. Clinching and wrestling were no more or less allowed than in Grebs day under the mq rules. Corbett and Fitz fought with four oz gloves, greb fought with five and six oz gloves (not sure where you got 8 to 12 oz gloves). Greb also fought in a style predicated on protecting his hands and scoring tons of points, thats not changing if yoy give him four oz gloves.

 

I posted stuff like that. When you are talking about one of boxing holy grail's you can expect backlash.

Yes, when Tunney fills out, Greb wasn't a match for him. Tunney beat on Greb badly in their last fight. Just imagine what Dempsey would have done to him.

Some say Corbett looks amateurish, most have not seen his stuff on a film that runs slow with Fitzsimmons. Corbett lands a very good combination to floor Fitz, had nice rights to the body. In addition Corbett superior athlete. When you a good athlete one can get away with being amateurish. Corbett by accounts was very quick with his hands and feet and hard to hit cleanly to the head. Again people ignore...

Greb himself was described as amateurish.

We are matching a short middle with little power vs a much taller and bigger man. But that point doesn't seem to matter much either. Nor does the point that Greb needs to insight here to win, and Corbett was a good clinch fighter.

Oh well.

 

HE,

Greb's stamina isn't proven over 15 rounds, Corbett's is.

Judging on how Tunney blows above 170 lbs hurt Greb, you could say Corbett's would bother him a bit. I think Tunney hit harder than Corbett, but not by a huge margin.

These shorter fights allowed Greb to be even more active. If the distance was longer, Greb would have to be more conservative.

This match is 5'8" vs 6'1 " and 170 vs 185. Greb is giving up a lot and lacks the power edge. In the clinches, Corbett being the bigger man has the advantage.

We don't even know if Greb had the foot speed to catch up to Corbett. This could be Corbett jabbing from the outside and making it too ugly for Greb in the clinches.

 

Klompton2

"I don't understand why it's so believable that Greb could fight at 165 or so, but the same can't apply to Tunney."

Whatever, I think Tunney was at his best when he fought Greb, as he was at this point in his life a natural 175 pounder. You seem to be arguing that Tunney was a natural heavyweight which raises the issue of how much he was then weakened by making the 175 pound limit.

Unless the weights over at box rec are wrong, they tell a pretty consistent story. Tunney's weights for these opponents--

1919--Bob Martin (one-sixty eight--Tunney's claim in autobiography)
1922--Battling Levinsky (171 1/2)
1922--Jack Burke (176)
10/1922--Chuck Wiggins (176)
8/1922--Tommy Loughran (173)
2/1924--Marty Burke (177 1/2)

Marty Burke weighed 182 for the Tunney bout.

"If you wanna believe Tunney had a growth spurt at 28, so be it."

In his three fights after 1926 (when he was 29) Tunney never came in at less than 189 1/2. Are you saying this was his natural weight when he fought Greb? And that he dried out with primitive diuretics and/or purgatives to make 175?

I rather think he fought Greb at weights that were best and most comfortable for him at that point in his life.

"Jim Corbett"

I think the Tunney that fought Greb was a natural 175 pounder, and I also think he beats Corbett. However, I think it hard to judge exactly the size of these two men. I don't consider tales of the tape to be all that precise. And the weights? Corbett's weight is given as 182 or 185 for Jackson in 1891 at 25, but 178 for Sullivan, and then back up into the 183-190 level for the rest of his championship fights.

 

"When Tunney fills out, Greb wasn't a match for him."

Klompton2 makes the strong point that Greb was certainly going back by this time.

On the other hand, I don't find his argument that Tunney never filled out convincing. The photos show Tunney filling out in the upper body. He was probably working on building himself up in preparation for Dempsey. Tunney's weights were clearly going up.

You make the good point that Corbett would be bigger than Greb by something like 15 to 20 pounds.

I agree with the point of view that boxing had advanced considerably by the 1920's, but with that size differential, I don't see this as an out fight.

*Just an aside, I don't know how much credence I would put on newspaper judgments during the no-decision era. A less than honest reporter might have a confederate bet on a boxer on the basis of his paper's decision and then win the bet by saying that boxer won. It really didn't hurt the losing boxer that much because the decision wasn't official and who outside the local area would read the paper anyway?

Official judges are at least under a spotlight.

 

Klompton2

I would like to ask you a question.

In 1950 the AP had a poll for the greatest fighters of the first half century.

I have read the Al Buck review of the poll in the Ring.

Dempey won overwhelmingly. Louis was a strong second.

Buck mentions other fighters who got support. Johnson, Jeffries, Tunney, and Langford among the heavyweights. Armstrong, Gans, Attell, Leonard, and Ketchel among the lighter weights.

Greb is not mentioned in the article at all. Did he get a vote?

I find this odd considering his reputation today.

Do you know why he did so poorly in this poll?

 

I'm arguing that Corbett's style makes sense under turn of the century rules, and that he doesn't get schooled by a modern amateur.

Yes, correct. Corbett's style was originally developed for LPR, as attested by 40 years of illustrations, photographs, and manuals showing people fighting like Corbett.

Depends which fighters and rules you're talking about.

Greb? Sure. He fought under pretty archaic rules himself.

A modern amateur? No. Not in 1890s conditions.

Irrelevant.

Anybody who's actually watched the early boxing films will notice that refs allow constant, blatant wrestling.

Doesn't matter how we interpret Queensberry rules a century later.

I never said Greb loses against Corbett.

In fact, I picked Greb. Greb's rules were close to Corbett's rules, and fighters in Greb's day didn't fight like modern fighters either. They retained some of the "wrong" techniques from Corbett's era. Just not all of them.

There's a continuum here. The earliest fighters transitioned into gloved boxing with a bareknuckle style that wasn't perfect for turn-of-the-century MQR, but worked well enough.

Then a combination of further rule changes and some technical refinement morphed the sport several times until you're watching Floyd Patterson alongside footage of Fitzsimmons and wondering what WTF happened.

 

Im arguing that Tunney could and did easily weigh in the 180s in shape long before he ever moved up to HW officially. The argument here has been that Tunney suddenly grew too big for Greb. Its a weak and silly argument that totally ignores the fact that Tunney's one undisputed victory over Greb happened when Greb was well past his prime. It also ignores that Greb beat Tunney when Tunney weighed in the 180s once and Greb was already past his prime. Furthermore, it ignores that Tunney was making weight for the LHW division. I know its hard to wrap your mind around but in that era fighters actually came in well under the division limits as opposed to today. You can see this across the board in all divisions. Mickey Walker by his own admission had a terrible time making 147 in 1925/26. I have the actual live interview where he is discussing this and yet surprise he made 144 in both 1925 and 126. Greb could comfortably weigh165 or more as early as 1916 and yet made 155 in 1918 (three pounds under the limit at the time). Tiger Flowers could comfortably make 167 pounds and did for most of his career but made 158 for Greb. Johnny Dundees yoyo weight was well known at the time. He was most comfortable at 133 but often got down to the 120s for important fights or if a title was on the line. Mike McTigue defended his LHW title against Walker and only weighed 160. In his next fight he was 170. This stuff isn't uncommon because fighters trained themselves down in that era and often overshot the mark. Why? Because losing a couple of pounds before a weigh in is not a big deal. We aren't talking about todays standards where a guy can regain 22 pounds in 36 hours before a fight.

The only consistently tell a story if you cherry pick your figures, which you did. Here are some you left out:

In 1920 against Jack Clifford he weighed 178. In his next fight he weighed 177. In 1921 against Johnny Ambrose he weighed 185. His next fight against Soldier Jones he weighed 185. We have photos of him from the Jones fight and he was in perfect condition. Nevermind that Tunney was well known for being a Spartan athlete who never let himself get out of condition. So unless you believe he suddenly let himself go and put on 10 full pounds of fat a year before he met Greb we can agree that he was the same size as Corbett. In his next fight against Burke he weighed 178. Three fights later, still in 1921 he weighed 178 again. In 1922, twice more he weighed 178 or over. In 1924, before Greb beat him in Cleveland he weighed 178, 177, and 183. We have a ton of pictures of him for the Spalla fight and he was no bigger than in his fights with Greb, explain that. In Cleveland there were no official weights given. Boxrec has that wrong. It was a catchweights bout and Tunney was said to weigh over 180 pounds. It was also said that he looked to have 20 or 25 pounds on Greb who weighed in the 160s. Greb won that fight by the majority of those present.

Im saying this absolutely asinine to believe Tunney walked into the ring for his lhw fights and didn't cut weight. Who ****ing does that in any sport? You seriously want to argue that Tunney just waltzed into the ring for those fights at his walking around weight? Ive already illustrated how stupid that is with his weights above. The guy was always a perfectly trained athlete. Even in the 180s years before he met Greb. So what was different? That he was making weight for 175 (which is exactly what every non HW does and has done for all time) or that he somehow his weight just bounced up and down for years and finally stabilized just as he so happened to forsake the LHW division and fight in a division where you don't have to cut weight.

Ridiculous. You think Greb was comfortable at 160? You think Archie Moore was comfortable at 175? You think Bobo Olson was comfortable at 160? You think SRR was comfortable at 147? Unless your James Toney with a pack of hotdogs attached to the back of your neck very few fighters fight at their walking around weight. Very few fighters even fight at their optimal, prime weight when in fighting condition. You cut weight and find a happy medium between conditioning and weight loss to give you the best advantage against your opponents. If you are 180 pounds in shape and can cut five pounds and be strong enough to win a title at 175 then you do it. What is the alternative? Tunney had no alternatives. In 1921/22 he wasn't ready for Dempsey and admitted it. He wasn't ready for Gibbons and admitted. He sure as hell wasn't ready for Wills. Where would he have gone? He wouldn't have made **** being an "also ran" at HW so he did what made the most sense. There was more money for him and better fights at 175. The alternative was getting beaten and losing his marketability and Tunney was very candid about the plans he set forth and exactly how calculated his career was from top to bottom. He waited and bided his time until the opportunity was ripe.

If you cant accept weights and tales of the tape then why are you even commenting. I might as well stick my fingers in my ears and insist that Corbett REALLY weighed only 147. You can tell from film, photographs, weights, and tales of the tape that Corbett was not a huge HW and no bigger than Tunney. He isn't a lot bigger than Bob Fitzsimmons when they fought and Fitz likely weighed about 165 for that fight (another instance where the weights given in boxrec are inaccurate as only estimates where given at fight time).

 

When has being under the spotlight ever stopped a bad decision? I would challenge anyone who has any problem with using newspaper decisions in Greb's case to go and do the research I did on every extent source and then come back here and tell me just how often those newspapers disagreed on his dominance. Something tells me youd very quickly turn from a naysayer to supporter. In Greb's case, when you use a consensus of papers and the majority agree, the vast majority are unanimous, then to suggest that those reporters are on the take would beg the question: Where is the money coming from. It becomes a tinfoil hat conspiracy theory to suggest that Greb had enough money to support HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of newspaper decisions in his favor. Its ridiculous and what would be the point? At some point, if he really wasn't that good, don't you think some of these all time greats would have actually done better against him? I mean its ridiculous to suggest that he paid off all of these reporters to write nice things about him BUT also just happened to kick ass when the chips were down. I mean, being in the spotlight for that second fight with Tunney didn't stop some of the most crooked officiating in New York history and that's coming from hometown newspapers of Tunney, many of whom called for investigations and said Tunney got beaten just as bad as in their first fight. That's the thing. Greb wasn't from a media powerhouse. He didn't have a lot of money behind him like Tunney or Dempsey. He didn't have a powerful manager. And coming from Pittsburgh he was the odd man out when it came to the New York press because you are talking about an era when New York was trying to consolidate its control over boxing and the press was largely behind that. When you look at the syndicated sports columnists of that era that appeared in local small town papers across America, or the big names that every one read the overwhelming majority of them were New Yorkers and they had a very provincial attitude toward guys like Greb. Then look what happened to those writers when the proliferation of newspapers started to fold and cannibalize each other. Those guys went to work at place like Ring Magazine and Boxing Illustrated and continued the same narrative they had been preaching for decades. Its no wonder he didn't get a lot of recognition from them. He had 300 fights and 15 of those took place in New York City proper. The vast majority of those were when he was already past his prime.

 

I completely agree about the ND era. In addition, I think some fights were less competitive because of it because the fighters knew there was no winner if both were standing.

Did boxing advance from 1900 to 1920? That depends. Stuff that was more important in the 1900's such as clinch fighting, feints, and stamina were are a premium in the at the tuun of the century. By 1920, rule changes and the limitations of rounds made clinch fighting, feints, and stamina less important.

I see the fight was Corbett being the better with his superior height, jab and reach and footwork on the OUTSIDE, and using his superior size, strength and weight to bully Greb in the clinches.

People stuck on the 1920's being superior style wise need to address the point of Greb being called amateurish. This actually suggests Greb's style was more like people fighting from 1900-1910. It worked for Greb, but he wasn't Benny Leonard or Gene Tunney.

 

Klompton2

"The only consistently tell a story if you cherry pick your figures, which you did."

I don't have full access to boxrec, so I just used the ones in which they give a ringside report with the weights.

But I did find a source which gives most of the weights. Fightsrec

Anyway, here is their list from November of 1920. They round to the nearest pound. Tunney's weights given--

Leo Houck------175 (11-25-1920)
Leo Houck------missing
Johnny Ambrose-----missing (185 off you)
Soldier Jones-----185
Marty Burke-----178
Eddie Joseph-----176
Herbert Crossley-----missing
Jack Burke-----178
Wolf L****n-----176
Eddie O'Hare----176
Battling Levinsky-----172 (1922)
Jack Clifford-----175
Whitey Wengel-----175
Fay Keiser-----174
Jack Burke-----176
Harry Greb-----175
Fay Keiser------174
Ray Thompson-----174
Charley Weinert-----176
Tommy Loughran-----173
Chuck Wiggins-----176
Jack Hanlon-----178
Charley Weinert-----179
Jack Renault-----missing
Chuck Wiggins-----176
Harry Greb-----174
Jack Clifford-----missing
Jimmy Delaney-----177
Dan O'Doud-----174
Harry Greb-----175
Harry Foley-----178 (1924)
Ray Thompson-----missing
Marty Burke-----178
Jimmy Delaney-----177
Erminio Spalla-----183
Georges Carpentier-----173
Joe Lohman-----missing
Harry Greb-----175
Ray Neuman-----missing
Harry Foley-----175
Buddy McHale-----missing
Jeff Smith-----179
Harry Greb-----181
Tommy Gibbons-----182
Italian Jack Herman-----186
Bartley Madden-----186
Johnny Risko-----188
Dan O'Doud-----missing (12-29-1925)
Jack Dempsey-----190 (189 1/2) (1926)
Jack Dempsey-----190 (189 1/2) (1927)
Tom Heeney-----192 (nineteen twenty-eight)

To me this tells the story. After the freaky high weight against Jones & possibly Ambrose (perhaps just printing errors or exaggerated estimates) Tunney's weight stays at 179 or below until Spalla in matches in which this source gives weights.

All these weights in the 170's prior to 1925---as you posted, three or four pounds doesn't amount to much. Tunney at this point could comfortably make 175 in my judgment w/o resorting to extreme methods.

 

Yep.

 

Hey guys, this is a bit off topic, but

Can anyone find a fight from a different era, filmed from a similar angle to the Corbett Fitz fight? It would be interesting to compare side by side!