Welcome To The Wasteland: The Once Great Super Middleweight Division Is In Shambles.

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by CST80, Feb 13, 2016.


  1. CST80

    CST80 De Omnibus Dubitandum Staff Member

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    Everyone says GGG needs to move to Super Middleweight, only there can he truly be challenged, and to that I say....by who? The last time I checked the only legit challenge for GGG, Andre Ward had moved up to Light Heavyweight, leaving behind a division in utter ruins. It's barely a shell of what once was. long gone are the glorious days of Joe Calzaghe, Carl Froch, Mikkel Kessler, Sven Ottke, Andre Ward, Chris Eubank, Nigel Benn, Mads Larsen and Steve Collins, its over and done, the former short lived era of greatness may never ever return again. Most of the fighters who currently populate the division are but a mere shadow of its former inhabitants, many of whom tasted defeat at their hands and remain to this day utterly ruined as fighters by their experiences against them. The supposed shining lights of the future have struggled somewhat embarrassingly against the victims of the greats, which doesn't bode well for their long term success. The division is for all intents and purposes a wasteland of a few brightish spots, average fighters and also rans, GGG has no reason whatsoever to journey there.

    Let's take a closer look at....

    The Stars of The Super Middleweight Division.
    James "Chunky" DeGale -
    The danger man in the division that many seem to be under the delusion that he's some kind of future all time great, capable of beating all that stand in his path, well they're wrong. DeGale while clearly talented, his talent seems to only last for around 6 rounds per fight, he's the king of razor close matches. Maybe he's the new Arthur Abraham. He lost his fight against George Groves, while it was controversial and many said DeGale should have won, I don't agree with that, sometimes a close match is a close match, the one judge got it right, it was a draw. He looked average against Piotr Wilczewski barely getting by a guy via a MD in England that was KO'd by Curtis Stevens. He couldn't stop Dyah Davis who Bika of all people stopped. He also struggled with and got busted up by Gevorg Khatchikian looking pretty average up until the late stoppage win, he looked sensational against Periban and Gonzalez, but the best guy Gonzalez had faced was Oosthuizen who kind of sucks, and Periban was an okay win, especially the KO aspect, but its not all that great since Periban is no world beater. Then had it not been for the 2 KD's against Dirrell that match would have ended in a draw, and this is an old shot Dirrell who looked terrible a few months before against Derek Edwards, and DeGale struggled for long stretches in their match. Then he puts on a very entertaining match against Cobra victim Lucian Bute, but why was it entertaining? Because Bute looked great, better than he had in years and put up a hell of a fight, but why couldn't put up a fight like that against Froch and Pascal, because on his best day DeGale pales in comparison to those two. It's not that Bute had some great renaissance, its just that DeGale can't lace Froch's boots, especially in the power department, and its a good thing Froch retired when he did, otherwise there'd be one more guy getting Cobra'd in England. His stamina has always been somewhat of an issue and nothing I've seen recently tells me he's improved in that department. DeGale is decent maybe above average but he's far from great.

    Badou Jack - Another mediocre to average fighter who barely scraps by, he didn't quite get by Periban unscathed it was a draw, that arguably could have gone to Periban. Then he was brutally KTFO by journeyman Derek Edwards, in a hilarious flopping around on the mat KO, that tells you all you need to know about his chin. Then came the match against Anthony Dirrell, in which he managed to shock everyone and pull off the upset win. But it wasn't that much of an upset, considering The Dog had went life and death twice with Sakio Bika. Then his crowning achievement, he wasn't KTFO by the Shell of twice Cobra'd Groves and even then he barely edged him in a match that should have been a draw. Jack The Ripper is average in every way, and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

    Fedor Chudinov - One the Barbarian Brothers otherwise known as the Chudinov's, even though he started his career off with a string of brutal KO's its abundantly clear at this point he isn't the huge puncher he seemed to be. His big win is against Felix Sturm, well good for him, he's as good as Sam Soliman and Daniel Geale. His other big win is against Frank Buglioni, who he literally beat from pillar to post and couldn't even stop him, a feat Brit Killer Sergey Khomitsky a MW pulled off the year before. Add to that he was dropped at the bell at the end of a round by Buglioni and looked pretty shaken up, so he can be hurt, which is a troubling sign. He's average in every way, although he is better than his brother Dmitry, which isn't saying much.

    George Groves - At this point I'm pretty sure its over for Saint George, since I consider myself a fan I was really hoping he could turn things around after his two back to back losses against Froch, but as I've said before, The Cobra's venom is necrotic and long lasting. He still hasn't mentally recovered from the proper pasting Carl gave him, and I'm not sure if he's physically recovered either. He's look average to good against journeymen and looked horrible against Badou Jack he basically threw any strategy out the window the moment he got dropped. Also Groves becomes way too unfocused and sloppy the moment he get tired which happens in every fight, which will be a problem that will most likely like DeGale continue to plague him. I'm hoping for the best now that he's with Shane McGuigan but I'm not holding my breath

    Gilberto Ramirez - I was pretty high on Zurdo Ramirez a few years ago when he was blitzing through subpar fighters and journeymen, he had all the makings of a far better harder hitting version of Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. at his best, sadly since he's stepped up he's also proved to be less than stellar and somewhat of a letdown. His power was an illusion, he lost a few rounds to Vlasov, and got hit way too cleanly, far too often, he pounded on Derek Edwards for 10 rounds straight and while he rocked him several times he couldn't stop a guy that Matt Korobov who isn't the biggest puncher KO'd. Then came his match against Gevorg Khatchikian who tagged him and seemed to slightly rock him several times, granted Gilberto still managed to win almost every round of the match, he still couldn't get the KO against a guy that DeGale KO'd. While his size and decent chin may prove beneficial in overwhelming most normal sized SMW's, his skill level isn't high enough to compete at the elite level.

    Andre & Anthony Dirrell - How far the mighty have fallen, Andre has never been all that great, his best performance was what should have been a draw against Froch, his performance against AA before the DQ wasn't any better than Froch or Ward's, since then he was almost KO'd by Derek Edwards and beat Nick Brinson and Biosse...whoopee. Anthony was never all that good to start with, he's tentative as hell and seems to be scared to let his hands go, he must fear that he's packing glass. He couldn't KO Rubio in 10 rounds, in spite of teeing off at will on what was ostensibly a sitting target, that was his bounce back match after the Jack loss, which was made by Haymon to get him an easy KO win well it backfired in a big way, only further exposing his lack of power.

    Arthur Abraham - Arthur has never been the same since moving up to SMW, his glory days have long since gone as has his power. He's looked the epitome of average for the last 5 years. He's barely beat or lost Martin Murray, Robert Stieglitz x3 and Paul Smith, its one thing to look bad against Dirrell, Froch and Ward, but to look bad against those three is almost unforgivable. It's over for AA put a fork in him, but alas he'll stick around for a few more years getting a few more gift decisions or SD's along the way.

    Callum Smith - Paul's slightly better brother, who I've yet to see anything to truly get excited about, he looked totally unremarkable against Rebrasse for the majority of their match, who Groves beat in my opinion far more decisively, he beat Sjekloca but so has everybody else that matters, his big win was against Rocky Fielding, which didn't tell us a hell of a lot other than Rocky was another hypejob, and I have a sneaking suspicion that Callum is too. He's a good body puncher, but other than that there's nothing unique or special about him.
     
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  2. CST80

    CST80 De Omnibus Dubitandum Staff Member

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    Prospects And Faded Stars
    Lucian Bute
    - As sad as it is, I think Bute could be a real force in the division going forward, I think he'd have a good shot at beating most of the aforementioned stars. After all had he done a little better in 3 rounds against DeGale most of which were close anyway he could have won that one. Skill wise he's far more well rounded and still hits hard enough to be a force.

    Martin Murray - The chronic underachiever he always does just enough to lose, its not the judges fault or the refs fault, its Martin's. And I don't see that changing in him anytime soon. He's tough and can take a hell of a beating, but he's nothing special, never has been and never will be. But he can still pull off a few more close point losses against some decent names along the way, he's great at it.

    Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. - Has looked like absolute hell, he moves like his feet are stuck in cement, his punching power is all but gone, what wasn't thoroughly ruined by Maravilla, was polished off by Fonfara, Chavez Jr. should retire, those two matches he received colossal beating in, his heart doesn't seem to be in it anymore and I'm not sure his mind ever has been.

    Vincent Fegenbutz - Got KO'd in his second match, got a massive gift against decent journeyman De Carolis, got KTFO in the De Carolis rematch, righting that hideous wrong. Will never amount to much, it's over for the arrogant Feigenbutz, hopefully they'll feed him to Abraham so AA can go out on a high note.

    Julius Jackson - Glass jawed like his father got dropped several times and eventually KO'd by Korobov victim Uzcategui. It's doubtful with the hideous mandible that he'll pick up the pieces that easily. It's sad I had high hopes for him, but sadly... like father, like son.

    Giovanni De Carolis - Good journeyman who was thoroughly outclassed by AA, he's good at exposing hypejobs but will most likely never be a real player in the division, which is sad because he's such a likable guy, who's easy to root for.

    Jose Uzcategui - Will lose against most in the division who can take a punch, may beat some who can't.

    Nieky Holzken - Kickboxer and part time boxer who's got some flashy moves and has a cool look, but he's been KO'd 4 times in his MMA matches, so he's packing glass.

    Caleb Plant - Sweet Hands has some good moves and some real talent, but his power has faded since stepping up his competition and his show off style is way too cocky, and it will inevitably backfire on him.

    Felix Sturm - It's over Adnan, he's been running on fumes for a half a decade and this point he has nothing left and he needs to hang it up.

    Schiller Hyppolite - Limited but could upset an apple cart or two. I doubt he can beat a real contender.

    Tyron Zeuge - Decent German who I have a feeling won't go far, he's yet to step up and that may be for a reason.

    Jamie Cox - Hard hitting Brit with personal problems, he has potential but he's nothing extraordinary.

    Rocky Fielding - Sloppy Brit who got KO'd by Callum in one round, who looks good sometimes and horrible often, I thought he might turn out to be decent, but I was badly mistaken. But he can still be in some good domestic dust ups.

    Mark Heffron - Another somewhat promising Brit who has personal problems as well, he likes to party more than he likes to box. If he could get his act together, he may have a decent future. He's only fought 11 times in 5 years, which is pretty sad.

    David Benavidez - Monstrous puncher whose been bulldozing everyone who stands before him, although so was Zurdo Ramirez and his own brother Jose, I'm far from sold yet.

    Jesse Hart - Decent American fighter, who can look decent at times and can also look flat out awful. He's far too sloppy to be a major player and if he doesn't tighten up a ton of aspects in his game he is a KO waiting to happen.

    Zac Dunn - Promising Aussie fighter who got dropped by Derrick Findley, they went to war and Zac escaped with a SD over a fighter who was recently KO'd by the most featherfisted Middleweight on the planet Sulecki.

    Oscar Ahlin - Once promising Swedish Golden Boy who got exposed by Bernard Donfack who has 11 losses, too soon to write off, he might be able to make a Euro level impact, but I'm not even sure about that.

    Ronald Gavril - TMT's Romanian KO machine, he got outpointed and exposed by a shot to hell Elvin Ayala who was subsequently obliterated by Middleweight Sergey Derevyanchenko.

    J'Leon Love - Another TMT belly flop, he got beaten down and dropped while roided up by Rosado, got a gift win that was overturned, got his payback at the hands of Porky Medina who delivered a butt twitch inducing KO. Most likely done at the top level.





    Not only is the present uninspiring by the looks of it, it's future isn't very bright either........Pretty sad isn't it? When you think about the greatness of Froch, Ward, Kessler and Calzaghe compared to what it is now, it almost make you want to cry doesn't it?



    Now could someone please explain to me and everyone else what the hell GGG or any other Middleweight has to gain from moving up this shell of a division?


    It's so very very Bleak. It's a cold dreary desolate dystopian Wasteland of a division.:-:)verysad

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  3. drenlou

    drenlou VIP Member

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    Good thread, but if he's supposedly ducked by fighters at 160, why not move up and conquer another division? He's small enough to come back down for a super fight at 160, so I don't really see a big deal about moving up to fight guys who are ready and willing to welcome GGG to 168.

    Its better then fighting the wades of the world, and it also gains him notoriety on a national level. GGG would gain my respect that way rather then fighting guys who have only had three 10 rounders.
     
  4. HerolGee

    HerolGee Loyal Member banned Full Member

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    on the other hand, theres much less of anyeon hijacking the titles defending against no ones for years and using hometown decisionsto keep them.

    plus people are actually using the division now, instead of using it as a stepping stone and regarding it as a nothing, or a pocket universe for brit boxing in whch brts can square off against each other reducing it to a brit title. much more competition than back in the 90s
    , people born in the 80s onwards see it as a valid division worth fighting in, rather than one that's been "introduced"
     
  5. CST80

    CST80 De Omnibus Dubitandum Staff Member

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    Wade is a mandatory.:deal The Middleweight division as I've pointed out in other threads at least has a ton of fighters who look to be legit future players and far better than any of the prospects at SMW have to offer. He can stay there for years and pick off all the Khytrov's Derevyanchenko's, Quigley's that come along and maybe eventually even Canelo.

    However I fully believe GGG could move up take out AA and DeGale with relative ease, and then what? He's stuck like Ward was, and he's too damn small to move up to LHW.
     
  6. madballster

    madballster Loyal Member Full Member

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    Solid threat. SMW looks pretty dead, the talent pool is seriously depleted since Froch retired. Guys like Groves or Degale are not A list material. They're solid contenders but not elite. Abraham is not competitive IMO at SMW and Sturm is a fraud.
     
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  7. drenlou

    drenlou VIP Member

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    How the **** did Wade obtain that no. 3 ranking without having 1 twelve round fight? He could have offered Lara the fight, why not? It seems haymon fighters are getting HBO dates and is certainly more qualified than Wade.

    Move up, fight AA/Ramirez, Chavez Jr/Jack, Degale even a pro fight with Dirrell is better then what we are getting against Wade. Cmon Chris if Canelo, Jacobs, and BJS price themselves out, what do you expect him to do? Wait for toureno to heal, feast on Lee or Korobov?.. Move up! It makes too much sense not to.
     
  8. drenlou

    drenlou VIP Member

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    If DeGale is not Elite, how is GGG elite?
     
  9. theanatolian

    theanatolian Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    He can fight Degale, Jack or Chudinov at his usual weight in super middleweight contests but there's no point in moving up. If he's stuck with fighting mediocre challengers, he can do it at his own natural weight class against less mediocre challengers. And as CST pointed, there are more # of talented contenders/prospects @160 than there are @168.
     
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  10. drenlou

    drenlou VIP Member

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    Mann...... great fighters move up!. What are you going to tell me Hagler never did? Those prospects have to gain Mando status which at the looks of Wade doesn't seem too hard... Move up and fight legit fighters.
     
  11. damian38

    damian38 BigDramaShow Full Member

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    I totally agree with you CST :good
     
  12. theanatolian

    theanatolian Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Well, that's the thing, legit fighters. There're no more legit fighters @168 than there are @160. Great fighters move up either when they see an oppurtunity or they have a chance to test their greatness(unless they outgrown their natural weight class), and both those circumctances are gone by for Golovkin with Ward and Froch. I'm just not seeing the point now, there is nothing for GGG to build or improve his legacy by moving up.
     
  13. drenlou

    drenlou VIP Member

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    So youre referring to Canelo, Jacobs, and BJS, right? If those fighters don't want it who's better than anybody at 160 than anybody at 168? GGG is going to force those guys at 160 to fight him is what your telling me?

    Are you telling me Johnson, Lee, Korobov,Mora are better then just DeGale by himself?
     
  14. Jake LaMotta

    Jake LaMotta Lights Out Full Member

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    For the sake of 168, it's a good thing Ward moved to 175 and didn't shutout DeGale, Groves et al before doing so. DeGale still has some credibility behind him, so for the divisions sake, it's good he's on a good run and didn't have to fight Ward. It's no secret that I am a big Andre Dirrell fan and I think 2016 is his time to make something of his talents...he'll never get a better chance to become a world champ than this year.
     
  15. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

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    He ain't mandatory for nothing. If you knew what mandatory meant , you would say such a garbage statement.

    These bum fights get passed off as mando's to make them acceptable to the casual fanboi like you.

    A guy like Wade is easily sent to the side with a bit of step aside money. Easily

    The case here is more likely that k2 paid money for him to step into the ring :tired:-:)barf