ron lyle vs ken norton

Do you have documentation that Lyle sparred Frazier? Because if it was the advertised early 1971 session it never happened.

 

In order to beat a prime Ken Norton you generally had to be a super hitter like a Foreman or Shavers or an exceptional boxer like an Ali or Holmes. And even then victory wasn't guaranteed. Lyle for as good as he was didn't fit that description.. He could certainly bang and could "potentially" knock Norton out. but he wasn't the super puncher that he's often credited as being and I'm not confident that he was a better boxer than Ken either. I'm leaning toward Norton by decision.

 

It would have been interesting and definitely a meaningful fight. They had some common opponents-

Lyle lost to Jimmy Young twice (unanimous decision x2), Norton beat Young by split-decision.

Lyle lost by decision to Jerrry Quarry, Norton stopped Quarry in the 5th.

Lyle was stopped in the 5th round by George Foreman in a real shoot out, Foreman stopped Norton in the 2nd round and Norton failed to hurt Foreman.

Lyle beat Scott LeDoux by split-decision, Norton drew with LeDoux.

They both stopped Boone Kirkman.

They both stopped Larry Middleton, Lyle also beat him by decision.

They both stopped Jose Luis Garcia, Norton also lost by KO to Garcia in their first fight.

Both were stopped early by Gerry ****ey.

Lyle stopped Ernie Shavers, Shavers stopped Norton.

Lyle was stopped in the 11th by Ali but did give him some problems, Norton broke Ali's jaw and beat him by decision. Ali won two decisions over Norton but both were close and their 3rd fight was a robbery.

Lyle went 6-6 (4) vs. these men, 3 losses by KO. Norton went 6-6-1 (4) vs. these men, 3 losses by KO.

They were both 6'3". Norton's reach was 80", Lyle's reach is 76". Both were very solid even when they weighed 220+.

Norton was the better boxer. He held his own and then some vs. two of the best boxers the HW division has ever seen in Muhammad Ali x3 and Larry Holmes. He dominated and stopped guy who may have been able to box and punch pretty well but could not box or punch as well as himself... like Henry Clark, Boone Kirkman, Jerry Quarry (he was a bit past prime though), Joe Luis Garcia (their rematch), Pedro Lovell (Spider Rico), Ron Stander, Larry Middelton, Duane Bobick, and Lorenzo Zanon.

Lyle is seen as the more durable and the harder punching fighter but is that really true? I actually think it is but the margin is probably closer than most will admit. Lyle was hurt and stopped vs. Ali (although probably a little premature), Norton fought Ali 3 times and never seemed hurt. Norton was stopped by Garcia and Shavers but Lyle stopped them both. Norton was pre-prime vs. Garcia and washed up vs. Shavers. Norton also stopped Garcia in their rematch. They were both stopped by Foreman (no shame) and they were both stopped by ****ey (Norton and Lyle were washed up vs. C00ney).

I know plenty of people are going to pick Lyle by KO but I'm going with Norton by close decision. Norton may get knocked down once or twice but he will win most of the rounds.

 

we finally agree on something :hey

 

I like this answer. You beat me to it and explained it better than I ever could. So yeah, Lyle was a banger but not a world beater.

 

Extending off what you said, Do you believe a prime Norton beats Shavers? I do. Even if I may be in the minority.

 

This really is an excellent and perceptive post.

I have long considered Lyle's durability somewhat over-rated (probably due to his tough guy aura) and Norton's somewhat under-rated; for example Ali stopped Lyle but was unable to make barely a dent in Norton. Foreman aside Norton's stoppages were either when he was a tyro or washed up.

Another thing to be considered but doesn't seem to have been touched on in this thread - not many seem to consider the very real possibility that Norton could stun & hurt Lyle.

Several on this thread fancy Lyle to stop Norton early - a question I ask is what world class heavies did Lyle stop early?

As for the fight...does Lyle gamble on an early KO or does he have it in the back of his mind that he doesn't want to punch himself out? Despite my paragraph above I do actually believe that Lyle's best chance is to gamble on the early kayo, but I'm not sure he would want to take that gamble...if the gamble fails, Norton could stop Lyle later.

My gut feeling? Lyle comes out steady and Norton likely outpoints Lyle with some scary moments along the way.

 

Thanks :good

 

I think it depends on a few factors. How far had Ken really fallen off the top of the mountain? While he was definitely past his prime at the time of the shavers meeting, he had certainly given a prime Holmes fits not long prior to that.. And also would the early moments of that fight have unfolded the same way had it taken place say five years earlier ( 1974). I guess its not out of the question that had a more youthful Norton made it out of the early rounds he might have broken shavers down.. But he'd always have the issues with his chin being exposed to big punchers looming over his head. Incidentally most have either forgotten or are unaware that Ken Norton had a pretty good first round against George Foreman before being blasted out in the second. Not sure what others think but I gave him that first round.

 

not sure I agree. Lyle was already 32 years old when he met Quarry.. Not much room for growth at that stage. Plus he was undefeated in some 20 pro fights with wins over such notables as Buster Mathis and Larry Middleton.. norton had 16 fights with no wins over anyone of note and was still 3 years away from beating Muhammad Ali.. Also the fact that he avenged himself in the rematch against Garcia should say something as well.. Lyle never fought Quarry again.