Carlos Monzon vs Sugar Ray Leonard

Soooo what does ALMOST means to you. My exact words were ALMOST all that equate to size. Not ALL THAT equates to size. And yes my uneducated friend hitting power and chin can be related to size. He's the bigger man right, bigger men are usually stronger then smaller men right?. So monzon because he is the bigger man should hit harder then the smaller man right? He also because he is the bigger man he should have better chin then Leonard relative to his size. Stamina ? Debatable. Mental toughness? Very Debatable. Tell me, how many ATG's did Monzon defeat who wasn't at the end. No tail end of his career. How many in reality wasn't a natural welter at the tail end of his carreer.

 

Sooo all that says what? Your a "Fan boy". (Your words you like to use) but of Monzons....

 

Jesus. F&D needs to get a grip. He's detracting from the validity of his own argument by acting like a kid.

 

Hagler was a 4 round fighter in his final fight

you're confusing night with day

Leonard lasts the distance but loses a UD

 

you forgot chin as Leonard didnt have much of one

Did you know that Ray who invited hagler into the same ring with im, 5 years before, backed out of the fight in front of his own fans?

Yeah, he did that because he knew his chin wouldnt hold up for more than a few minutes. Visions of Hagler - Lee still dancing in his head

 

LOL, Monzon known for his speed? Someone types that in and you believe it. Trust your eyes. Leonard was fast, Monzon was not.

I would match Leonard resume of wins vs anyone post-1985.

Ray's just a bit too small here

 

Hmmmm. Not sure about this. Leonard didn't lack nerve. He went toe to toe with tip top Duran and took on prime Hearns. And taking on Hagler after one fight in five years shows some mettle even if Marvin had slipped. And all the posters saying Hagler was a 'four round fighter', 'shot to bits'. That is revisionist. He had fought fairly regularly for years and if his display vs Mugabi wasn't vintage, he still beat a dangerous live contender convincingly. Which is why he was an overwhelming favourite against a man who had had one fight in five years

As for Leonard's chin, he hit the deck a bit as he got older and only fought every year or two but in his prime I don't see much evidence that he was chinny. Apart from the second round vs Duran, when was he ever in any real trouble?

 

I forgot chin? Ermmmm read my thread again bro

 

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revisionist? check the commentary in round 6 or had you forgot?

it doesnt take nerve to fight a man you ducked in his prime; it takes a LACK of nerve to fight a shell

why not just be honest with yourself? we all know the score

and since when does it take courage to fight a man two divisions smaller than you, and five years older?

as for leonard being hurt, count the ways; three times vs Geraldo rd. 3, more ways than I can count vs Norris, stopped by over the hill blown up featherweight camacho, Downed by nobodies Lalonde & the much smaller Howard

btw, round 6 commentary goes like this "Sugar Ray said he was counting on the slowness of Hagler. he said he had lost alot of speed"

so let us terminate the play acting

Monzon UD 15 Leonard

hagler - any time he wants (if Leonard isnt too chicken to fight. we know he loves fighting geezers tho)

 

Leonard would crumble under heavy pressure and wouldnt last long taking hard shots. Anyone who saw the Geraldo fight will never forget it

hell, I was even embarassed FOR HIM!

This was a guy who dropped 7 times in his last seven bouts, including Howard and Kevin was not world class, and not much of a hitter

It's a good thing it was Howard, and not Hearns who aced Duran that was put in front of him

Hearns from Sept. 81 looked downright anemic

I suppose Ray would last the distance vs Monzon but Carlos isn't the most aggressive guy out there, more a technician than anythng else

 

Are you really counting the Norris fight when he was 35 in rating Leonard's chin? If, as you say, Hagler was a 'shell' at 35 that's fair but don't then count Leonard at that age as prime. And the Camacho fight...really? If his chin were that bad you'd have been able to pick better examples than a 41 year old in his first fight in six years.

Geraldo came early on and was bigger than Leonard; Kevin Howard embarrassed him but didn't hurt him. I'm no fan of Leonard but you have to give him his dues.

You downgrade Leonard's display against Duran as Roberto was 29 and two weights above his natural fighting weight. Well he was 32 when Hagler fought him and four weights above lightweight. And out of Hagler and Leonard, guess who showed the most courage, toughness and chutzpah when they fought Duran? It's a one word answer. Hagler. Or Leonard. Who are you going for?

 

Ali was dropped by H. Cooper, Duran by Dejeasus, Louis by Galento Hagler by Roldan (yeah I know very debatable ) Holyfield by Bowe Robinson tasted the canvas, Armstrong, and many,many, more. To many to list, Lot of them A.T.G's Anyone can pick a moment in any great fighters career where he got this hit so hard his ancestors felt it. Here we have another poster who can't get past his personal bias cherry pick the moments Leonard looked bad and list them. Another posters with personal animosity it seems and gets on this site to advance his personal agenda. For every Norris can list Hearns Duran Benitez, For every Camacho theirs Kalule, Hagler, Lalonde, (yeah i know Lalonde wasnt special, but he was the natural bigger man, as one or two posters always bring up about Monzon, and of course don't compare him to aMonzon). Except this fact, Leonard pre 82 was one of the best fghters this world has ever seen. And he proved that against A.T.G's close or in their primes. Not an ancient over weight Napoles , or Griffith. Not a way over the hill Mosley, Delahoya or Pac. Let your personal bias go. You will feel better n the morning atsch

 

I don't get this bull**** about Leonard ducking Hagler. Hagler didn't win his title until late 1980. In 1980 and 1981 Leonard had mega fights with Duran and Hearns at his natural weight of WW. He had never fought above 153 pounds. He retired in early 1982 after his eye surgery. Over the next five years Leonard had one fight weighing 149 pounds before coming out of a three yr layoff to beat Marvin Hagler, who had not lost in 11 years, in his first fight out and a full division above the highest weight he had ever fought at (which THAT wasn't even his natural division either). I don't see how anyone can pretend Leonard somehow ducked Hagler EVER or was even afraid of him.

 

Its called bias. for some reason or another a few posters here have some personal issues with Leonard. They don't like him for whatever reason so even if were able to beat Mike Tyson around 86 or 87. They would find something wrong with that. So he barely beats Benitez, Duran beat his ass (as if their wasn't two other fights) Hearns was green and Dehydrated. Hagler old, or as one poster posted here wasnt much more then a 4 round fighter. But they dont want to hear Leonard was coming off a 5 yr layoff with Hagler and went up to middleweight. Norris he was in his late 30's coming off a bad cocaine n booze habit another long layoff 9 or 10 yrs past his prime. Camacho same as Norris , but this time 14 or 15 yrs past prime.