Sonny Liston Children?

He may not have been as good but he was also very old likely north of 36, inactive for two years , poorly trained and over confident .. he was not the same guy as he was in 59 or so ..

 

I don't know if it's true or not. And I haven't read the book.

However, I highly doubt Sonny Liston would've gone to the police for help if members of the Nation of Islam had picked up his wife and kid and took them to some hotel until the fight was over. And I don't think Liston would've gone to the press or anyone else, either if they had done so and returned them. He wasn't much of a talker.

Also, interviews with Liston's wife Geraldine have been included in documentaries on Liston over the years, and she wasn't much of a talker either. In fact, she never seems to know anything about anything. She never saw anything. She never heard anything. Sonny never did nothin'. And on and on.

Over the years, it seems like someone likely would've said something if it was true. And maybe they finally did, to that guy who wrote the book.

But, in 1965, the Nation of Islam was at war with itself. And it was populated by thousands of unsavory characters. Whether a few decided on their own to do it, or whether someone on top told them to snatch up Liston's family, it wouldn't have been the WORST thing they did that year.

Standing up during a crowded speech and shotgunning Malcolm X a few weeks earlier was kind of extreme. So taking some woman by the arm and pushing her and her kid in a car wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility.

 

You're right- no one would have went to the police.
If the story is true, it would have played out just as it did. Liston would have taken a dive sometime during the fight.
It would finally come out just as it did- dribble out years later after Liston and the major players were all dead.

 

Your initial instinct is correct. It is in large part a Valentine to Sonny Liston. The author makes a number of unsubstantiated claims it makes no effort to supply any authority for them. For example, early on he states that Marciano vs Archie Moore was widely known to be a fixed fight. He also goes on to say that Missouri's treatment of Sonny Liston is what destroyed boxing in Missouri.

I subsequently learned from listening to the other on a podcast that he feels that he is able to speak to Sonny Liston by way of a psychic. He also indicated that he would be writing a follow up on healing from the information has received from sunny from beyond the grave. Apparently the bear has less interest in boxing now but wishes to pass along his newfound wisdom.

 

He wasnt anymore inactive against Ali than he was against Patterson the first time around. I dont buy that as an excuse. Its not like you go and train for one round fights. He you train the same regardless. He looked great in 59 because he was up against a bunch of guys who were tailor made for him. The following year the one guy he fought that was most like Ali made him look bad with one hand. Ali was the best guy Liston ever fought before or after and it showed. Liston was never going to beat Ali with or without the help of nefarious forces. For my money this is a case of what you see is what you get and a lot of people just cant reconcile that. In the first fight Ali was bigger, faster, smarter, and tougher mentally. He had Listons eyes puffed and had him guessing all night. I dont even necessarily doubt the shoulder injury because thats the exact type of injury you get from repeatedly punching nothing but air. The second time Liston didnt quit. He was up and fighting before the end of the count. People called into question his staying down but he had every right to as it was improper for the count to continue with Ali refusing to go to his corner. It was Walcott who messed that fight up, not Liston, so I find it strange when people claim Liston took a dive in that fight. Gallender would get slightly more notice from me if he alleged that WALCOTT'S family had been kidnapped and held so that he would rule against Liston, than the far fetched and unsubstantiated story 50 years later whereby the NOI kidnaps Liston's family in order to force him to take a dive for what? The second time? I mean Ali had already beaten him handily the first time around. The only time Liston was in that fight was when Ali was blinded. Doed Gallender allege that Liston's family was held captive that night as well? Or does he think the NOI suddenly thought that an old Sonny Liston would be able to get into 200% better shape to the point where he would actually be competetive? I dont know these tinfoil hat conspiracies just dont add up to me.

 

For real?

 

Yikes.

 

This post is kind of long. I know. But bear with me.

I agree. The first fight was a clear Ali win. Liston's team even tried to cheat to win (with the linament in the eye).

In the rematch, however, most people there seemed to believe they were witnessing a dive - primarily because of the actions of Liston.

For me, it wasn't so much the blow that dropped him. But it was when Liston got up on one knee, then went down the second time and put his arms over his head, while Ali was running around, and then got right up when the referee came over.

Nothing about that second fall seemed legit. And he did get up, and Walcott did go over to hear what Fleischer was yelling at him, but I wouldn't say Liston was fighting back.

Liston didn't throw a punch when he got up. He just put his hands up and started ducking and retreating. Yes. He was on his feet when it ended. And I agree with you that Walcott blew it and Walcott shouldn't have stopped it. But Liston wasn't fighting back.

Maybe Liston could hear the count of the timekeeper and when the timekeeper outside the ring got to ten, that's when Sonny got up?Maybe Liston stood up after going down twice because he thought Walcott was just going to stop it when he stood up? And then Walcott didn't for a few moments.

I would also offer this about why the Nation of Islam would kidnap his wife and kid. Again, I have no idea if his family was held during the fight.

But here is a scenario - The story at the time was that Malcom X's followers were coming to the fight to kill Ali. Everyone was talking about it. Ali was angry and is on tape saying if the police know that people are on the way to kill him, why aren't the police doing something about it.

If the Nation of Islam was trying to stop Malcolm X's people from killing Ali, one way to do it would be to call off the fight. The other would be to cut the fight really short.

Maybe guys from the Nation of Islam told Liston that someone was coming to shoot Ali, and THEY (the Nation of Islam) wanted Liston to go down in the first and cut the fight short.

Maybe Liston told them to f*ck off.

And then maybe they stopped by his house the day of the fight, while he was in Lewiston, and picked up his wife and kid, and then called him to say they had his wife and kid in a car, and told him he should go down in the first. And if he did, they'd bring his wife and kid home after the fight.

And not wanting to get shot by someone spraying the ring trying to hit Ali, and not wanting to have his wife and kid killed, and not wanting to get involved PERIOD in the shooting war going on with the Nation of Islam and the splinter groups it was fighting with ... maybe Liston just went down and got the hell out of there?

And, after the fight, his wife called him when they brought her home. And that was the end of it.

The Nation of Islam and its former followers could go right on killing each other and Sonny Liston didn't have to be involved in any of it.

Because this wasn't Don King telling stories about how decades ago he stomped some little guy to death on a corner.

Any NOI threats of violence were very real at that time. They were opening fire and killing each other in public. Malcolm X was a bigger global figure in 1965 than Muhammad Ali was. They just stood up while MAlcolm X was giving a speech in room crowded of Malcolm X followers and blew him away. The idea of Ali getting gunned down in Maine was very plausible on the heals of that. So was shooting a woman they had in a car on the other side of the country.

(THEY DID shoot other people's wives and kids. So it proved not to be a hollow threat, if they did threaten Liston.)

Liston was a tough guy, but he didn't seem interested in getting any more involved in the NOI internal gun battle than he already was as a participant in that boxing match.

 

In my heart I think both fights were straight.

Liston had the same story that night, that he had for the rest of his life. And thats that Ali was running towards him, so he fell over again.

Which kind of sounds silly at first, but makes a lot of sense when you see the footage.

Ali was just too great for him.

And the NOI never kidnapped or attacked other boxers. They only defended Ali from outside forces, like the mob. If the NOI did anything, Ali had no knowledge of it, and I seriously doubt that they did.

 

You're jumping to more conclusions than Gallender did.

Why would Ali running at a man on one knee make Ali great?
Dirty would be more like it.

When did the NOI defend Ali from the Mob or even need to?

How do you know the NOI never attacked any other boxer?
NOI goons attacked hundreds or even thousands of people. How do you know none of them were boxers?

How do you know Ali had no knowledge of anything the NOI might have done?

 

I think Liston tried to take a dive.

In an act of pure stupidity, Ali refused to go to a neutral corner for a full 17 seconds. He was then back in the center of the ring before the fight was signaled to resume.
Liston did exactly what he should have done by staying down and waiting for Walcott's count which never came.

The crowd was booing and yelling "FIX".
Liston finally got up because he had no choice. He either thought he had been counted out somehow or he knew his dive had become too obvious. He had already been called up before a congressional committee investigating the first fight and didn't want to mess with that again.

He probably planned on going down later in the fight and making it look more believable.

 

Sadly yes. Here is his pyschic: http://www.josieroase.com .

 

Let's make it clear that the psychic had nothing to do with Gallender's book.
He met her after the book was published.

 

No, and they didn't kidnap any boxers in this situation either. But the Nation of Islam members murdered Malcolm X a few weeks before the Ali-Liston rematch. The Nation of Islam members slaughtered an entire family in Kareem Abdul Jabbar's home. The members who committed those murders were from the Philadelphia mosque led by Jeremiah Shabazz, who was a member of Ali's entourage.

In fact, the man whose family was slaughtered at Jabbar's house took hostages later and demanded the police deliver the murderers, as well as Ali and Elijah Muhammad's son to him.

So the guy whose family was killed certainly didn't think Ali was totally oblivious to all this.

Hell, Malcolm X, Muhammad Ali and Kareem Abdul Jabbar were the most famous members of the Nation of Islam in the 1960s. Murders were taking place all around them.

And none of that is brought to you by a psychic. It actually all happened.

No offense, but saying the Nation of Islam just protected Ali from the mob is pretty naive. It was a very ruthless organization in the 1960s and 1970s.

You can go online and find an interview with Malcolm X alongside another member of Ali's entourage - Leon Ameer - who was brutally beaten by Nation members from Boston when he expressed sympathy for Malcolm X. Malcolm X was murdered about six weeks later by the Nation.

(Ameer is standing next to him, about four minutes in. Malcolm X introduces him.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFr4GACTGX4

 

That is why the next book is going to be the game changer. The first one written without the input of a pet psychic to speak to Sonny on the other side. The only issues left are concern casting the movie.