Carlos Monzon vs Sugar Ray Leonard

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Longhhorn71, Feb 12, 2016.


  1. redrooster

    redrooster Boxing Junkie Full Member

    13,635
    331
    Jan 29, 2005
    Carlos def has the advantage over Leonard. Ray a bit faster but would not play a factor here as Carlos is just too good a boxer.

    I see lots of jabs and lots of bruising under Ray's eye, possibly closing. some body work from Carlos taking the gas out of Ray late (similar to Norris -srl) causing more and more unforced errors by the Sugarman, who falls farther and farther behind.

    Due to his track record for self preservation, and his running style, Ray diverts all his remaining reserves to his legs and sprints to the finish line for a UD points loss
     
  2. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,589
    18,324
    Jun 25, 2014
    Monzon never beat anyone as good as Leonard, Hearns or Hagler.

    Monzon fought in a very weak middleweight era - by comparison. (Hell, Anthony Mundine was better than his dad.)

    Monzon's best middleweight opponents (Benvenuti and Valdez) were either very fragile (Nino) or never really beat anyone either (Valdez).

    Monzon would NOT have been dominant in most of the better middleweight eras. He was the best of his era, but his era wasn't very good. His name came up often after he retired because he held the record for most defenses. And people equated that with greatness.

    But people have come along since who have racked up plenty of defenses in their own right (hell Dariusz Michalczewski nearly doubled Monzon's total at light heavy) ... and we've all come to realize that a lot of defenses don't go hand in hand with greatness.

    Leonard, Hearns and Hagler would all beat him ... and if Leonard and Hearns dug in their toes and cut loose on him, Monzon would be lucky if he made it to the final bell.
     
  3. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,589
    18,324
    Jun 25, 2014
    Carlos Monzon isn't OUTBOXING a prime Sugar Ray Leonard.

    Ever.

    Hell, he barely outboxed a faded Griffith who had lost to everyone and their brother by that point.

    Outboxing the older, middleweight Griffith was the equivalent of outboxing Miguel Cotto today.

    It doesn't equate to beating Leonard at his best. Not even close.
     
  4. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,428
    9,396
    Oct 22, 2015
    Again your cherry picking won't even respond to your response on Hagler and Dejesus. Anyone with common sense know what I'm getting at. And you did to because you didn't use Ali vs Cooper or Louis vs Galento. Again the way you write tells me you have some personal dislike for Leonard and it comes out in the words and tone you use. Its been over 30 yrs since the Hagler and Duran fights. They lost get over it. Stop sugarcoating it (you won't ) Anyone with any knowledge of the fight game( I'm going to assume you do though you assume i don't ) know the Norris and Camacho fights wasn't even close to the fighter that fought in Montreal or Hearns or Benitez. Yet anytime you post on Leonard that's what you bring up. And if were doing that lets also hold Ali vs Berbick / Jones jr. Last couple fights, Robinsons last few, Durans last few etc etc etc. Or any fighter who stayed around to long against them. Even Hagler shouldve retired after Mugabi. Stop with the foolishness look in the mirror, and get over yourself the world has already gotten over you.
     
  5. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

    52,550
    43,817
    Apr 27, 2005
    Anyone believing that should have their posting privileges revoked.
     
  6. redrooster

    redrooster Boxing Junkie Full Member

    13,635
    331
    Jan 29, 2005
    Galento & Cooper were noted punchers whereas Howard was not

    the difference in size between the two was almost as laughable as the match between leonard & lalonde, the one in which Donny supposedly held two titles

    Ray didnt have the chin to stand up to prime hagler which is why the fight never came off during Hagler's prime

    check the record if you can stomach the truth. Leonard chickened out of a fight with Marvin in front of his own hometown fans. Marvin was invited to Baltimore into a ring with leonard. everyone thought he was going to announce a fight with Marv along with a date but I smelled a rat even before he blurted out those famous words "cluck" "cluck"

    anyways, it was good it didnt come off as it would've been a quick slaughter, worse than Norris or Camacho who both exposed Ray's weaknesses - his ****py chin, and ability to deal with speed

    remember the redrooster rule; the slower the opponent, the more Leonard shine while the converse is the faster the opponent, the worse he fares

    even you should be able to see that :nut

    For Leonard and his fans they need this win but to the rest of us, it's about as amazing an upset as Leon Spinks beating Ali over 15 rounds with just 7 fights under his belt

    if Leon can decision Ali over 15 then it's no surprise that Leonard can can win a controversial dec over a 4 round fighter in a highly publicized superfight
     
  7. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,344
    Jun 29, 2007
    Hmmm, another poster also think Monzon is overrated. So do I.

    However Mozon could out work Leonard, or make him fight his fight like say Duran did.
     
  8. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,589
    18,324
    Jun 25, 2014
    This guy isn't outworking Leonard.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW6i7K2bq8w

    Monzon was jab. Jab. Jab. Jab. Right hand. Jab. Jab. Jab. Jab. Feint with the right. Jab. Jab.

    He didn't fight like Duran did in Montreal. And, when Duran tried to fight like he did in Montreal in the rematch, Leonard just stayed off the ropes and boxed his head off.

    Monzon was Virgil Hill with a little more power. He was a fine boxer. But he wasn't GREAT. He was the best in a down era for middleweights. And his record for defenses kept him in the limelight longer than it should've.
     
  9. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

    52,550
    43,817
    Apr 27, 2005
    Red, if you had to rate SRL's peak quotient out of 10 where would you put him for both those fights?
     
  10. Eddie Ezzard

    Eddie Ezzard Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,480
    5,208
    Jan 19, 2016
    I only wanted a one word answer to who out of Leonard and Hagler showed more steel vs Duran and I got that.

    As for the redrooster rule, 'the slower an opponent the more Leonard shines'. No sh*t Sherlock. You could put the name of every boxer who ever lived in place of Leonard there.

    And he 'couldn't handle slick boxers...'? Was Benitez some kind of crude slugger. Hearns?

    And the Camacho fight cannot count against Leonard. He had fought once in 7 years and was nearly 42 having spent years on drugs. It's irrelevant in evaluating his prime. You keep bringing it up but it's like saying the Berbick fight negates Ali's standing in history.

    Let's try you on another one word answer? It's a yes or no. Do you hate Ray Leonard?
     
  11. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,428
    9,396
    Oct 22, 2015
    And can someone please tell me how many A.T.G's that Monzon defeated? Monzons career was a lot like Floyd M. He was in The right era at the right time and most of the fighters he defeated were in the winter/fall of there careers or naturally smaller men, or men who just wasn't very good in the 1st place. Like Floyd we don't know how good or bad Monzon was. And I know some of you are going to say Well Monzon was just that dominant. But when you look at the records of the fighters he fought before and after he fought them, most were already going thru that stage when they shouldve already hung em up.
     
  12. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    24,589
    18,324
    Jun 25, 2014
    Jose Napoles was a great fighter. But he was nearing the end (35), and he moved up two divisions for one fight against Monzon and moved right back down. He wasn't a middleweight.

    Emile Griffith was also older and a former welterweight and middleweight champ. But he was nearing the end, starting to lose regularly and on the small side (about the size of Cotto).

    And Nino Benvenuti - who he took the title from, was a top guy but he went down a lot. Again, he was at the end. In fact, the Monzon fights were two of his last three fights. (And he lost his tuneup fight between the two Monzon fights, so he was all done.)

    I wouldn't lump Monzon with Mayweather. Mayweather actually beat some guys on the rise. Canelo Alvarez, Jose Luis Castillo, Diego Corrales, Miguel Cotto, for example, all scored the biggest wins of their careers AFTER losing to Mayweather. You could throw Juan Manuel Marquez in their, too. (Although he was older.)

    You can't say that about any of the top guys Monzon defended against.

    Monzon was a fine fighter. But guys like Leonard, Hearns and Hagler (the best of the best) were better, imo.
     
  13. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,428
    9,396
    Oct 22, 2015
    I understand your point ( very good one). But what I was getting at was the championship fights. And what did that fighter do after the championship fights. Hearns, Benitez, Duran, even Kalule went on to some success after they fought Leonard. How many of Monzons opponents did the same.
     
  14. redrooster

    redrooster Boxing Junkie Full Member

    13,635
    331
    Jan 29, 2005
    in this case it's all relevant because Ray was heavily favored over Terry because of his experience

    but it was Terry's speed that saved the day

    It was Terry's speed that allowed TN to beat Ray to the punch consistently and TN's myriad of defensive manuvers to thwart RL to muster any kind of offensive to catch up

    Just follow the redrooster rule which says "the faster the opponent, the worse Leonard fares against that opponent"

    the Camacho fight confirms this because as Leonard my have had the size advantage (Camacho came up several divisions below and much the smaller of the two) it was Hector's speed that ultimately proved too much for him
     
  15. redrooster

    redrooster Boxing Junkie Full Member

    13,635
    331
    Jan 29, 2005
    hagler didnt take the Duran fight to show his mettle, he took it soley for the money and exposure

    that's what the Hearns fight was for, remember?

    people like you often confuse yourself (lack of clarity, etc)

    Benitez, you cant classify as fast

    and nobody ever said he was

    as for the knockout loss to hector, that talk about drugs is just an excuse to hide the embarrassment of losing to a smaller (albeit much quicker man)

    simply put; whatever Ray did, Hector did better (faster, bigger heart, WAY better chin!,, not to mention smarter)