Johnson rated Walcott the greatest fighter of all

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by gregluland, Feb 26, 2016.


  1. gregluland

    gregluland Boxing Addict Full Member

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  2. gregluland

    gregluland Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I bet Klompton won't like Jack Johnson after that article lol
     
  3. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Some Jack Johnson articles almost eclipse the Lord of the Rings in terms of pure fantasy. This one is a real hoot.

    It only takes a quick glance at Walcott's record to see that he lost and was knocked out by men well below 160.

    There could be a Joe Coynski connection here as Choynski KO'd Jack Johnson and Walcott KO'd him though I read Choysnki had a rib injury coming into the fight.

    I do have a filmed interview with Walcott later in life. He seems like a cherry type and misses the fight game.
     
  4. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Johnson was entitled to his opinion. Its one of many. Another person could easily point out that Walcott had MANY more losses and draws than Greb in half as many fights against a lower class of competition who were all smaller. So forgive me if I take Johnson's OPINION with a grain of salt.
     
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  5. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    We agree too much :)
     
  6. gregluland

    gregluland Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The article is put up for the purpose of learning a bit of history, Johnson may have reasons either way but as a great fighter he has more right to an opinion than most. What you can glean from this article is that Walcott had very abnormal power and from the other one Fitzsimmons was freakishly powerful.
     
  7. gregluland

    gregluland Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Let's see, Walcott's first fight apparently in 1890, in feb.... he loses first fight in like his 5th fight giving away 3 and a half pounds, his second loss in 1893 to someone of unspecified weight so I assume the guy weighed less than an ounce (Jimminy Cricket ?), in 1895 in what his 52nd fight, he fights a legend, Kid Lavigne who had been clearly made a fool of by Young Griffo but that's Griffo for you (genius).... this fight is a rort, it stipulates that if Joe doesn't knock George out, George wins the decision, Lavigne probably gets beat but because he is not knocked out he won,... you cannot take anything from Walcott here and both men weighed the same. Earlier that year he had a draw with the great Mysterious Billy Smith, the weights not shown but Smith usually way above the 131 Walcott weighed 9 months later, Smith was usually nearer 150 than 131.
    ... He lost against Tommy West, I think he was a welterweight as he fought Ryan, this in 1897...... so he has lost 4 but under what circumstances ?????..... so far never knocked out but he does get stopped soon, in October 1897 by Kid Lavigne (ok so Griffo may be better than Walcott but I expected that).... there is just a pound and a half difference. Remember we are only looking at the negatives because you like those, lets not mention him knocking middleweight Dan Creedon out in the first, Joe loses to Mysterious Billy Smith on POINTS after 20 rounds.
    You won't like this Klompy but Walcott despite giving away 16 pounds to the Great Joe Choynski, he knocks Choynski out in 7 rounds...... here is a report, "The betting made Choynski a prohibitive favorite, odds of 100 to 30 being freely laid on his chances, but after the first round, in which Choynski went to the floor five times, the odds shifted, and at the beginning of the second round Walcott was a 2-1 favorite. The fight was stopped by Referee Johnny White, who declared Walcott the winner. White said afterward that he felt that another blow would have put Choynski out.".... Greb beat a few giving away weight like that but didn't knock many out or stop them as in this case.
    His next loss is against Tommy West but this is highly suspicious as he had weakened West after severely punishing him then he quits for no apparent reason... everyone suspects "crookedness". This is now after Joe has been fighting for a decade and lost just 7 times.. two at least when he is a novice and 9 draws in 89 fights... thats a lot of wins and only a few ND fights. The next year he hits a guy while in a clinch and is disqualified. He is not a welterweight until he beats George Gardner and gives George 10 lbs and Gardner is a future world light heavyweight champ. he loses again to Kid Carter... god knows what weight he was. He wins a world welterweight title against Rube Ferns in between two wins over Young Peter Jackson. His next loss is against George gardner who is now light heavyweight by the looks and has a newspaper loss to Philly Jack O'Brien a light heavy, just before that he gives away SEVENTY FIVE POUNDS for a DRAW against Fred Russell a Heavyweight obviously. Walcott lost in 1902 by a KO but this is to a heavyweight for the "coloured" heavyweight title, his name was Frank Childs.
    It isn't until he is way past his prime that he starts to have a bunch of losses and he is just a welterweight fighting guys usually much heavier than him and I cannot find him being knocked out at all by anyone smaller than him... I have only mentioned the negatives because I wanted to prove you right but alas I think I failed, damn it !!!!!!.... Should I now mention all the great things he did ???
    He has a draw against the great great great Sam Langford in 1904 and also a draw against the great great Joe Gans and from 1905 onwards you can see he is washed up, too many hard fights, the vast majority real fights, very few ND fights, this man had a very hard life outside the ring and hard living means its over for him, he should have retired after the Gans fight.... anyway... nice try son but no cigar.
     
  8. gregluland

    gregluland Boxing Addict Full Member

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    \Oh a lower class of opposition ???? how is that ??... Joe Gans, George Kid Lavigne, Honey Mellody, Sam Langford, Tommy West, Young Peter jackson, Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, Joe Choynski, Dixie Kid, Mysterious Billy Smith, Dan Creedon, Kid Carter, George Gardner, Rube Ferns, Mike Donovan, Joe Grim.
    Gee you are right, Walcotts resume is nonexistent eh... ROFL, you stand up comedian you.
     
  9. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I'd venture to say... One could very easily say Walcott fought better men. I'd say Sam and Joe are better all time than anybody on Greb's resume. I think Greb best foes were Tunney and Gibbons. Sam and Joe were better.
     
  10. gregluland

    gregluland Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Could be, the more I read about this era,... the awesome KO hitters, Fitzsimmons, McGovern and Walcott, the defensive genius and amazing speed of Young Griffo and the skills of Dixon, Gans and Corbett and the genius allround abilities of Tommy Ryan and the wild men like Mysterious Billy Smith and all these other great tough guys of the era the more I am impressed, of course I have left out many great names to keep this short. It was the wild west and yes there is much that has a smell about it like the deal with Lavigne and the suspect goings on of one of the Tommy west bouts with Walcott and the biggest rip off in boxing history, the ridiculous decision to Jack McAuliffe in Young Griffo's 168th fight but this has never really changed.
     
  11. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    Like anything else it requires close ****ysis .. Johnson was not alone in praising Walcott so highly as Langford and Gans did as well .. My feelings are that Joe was an exceptional force for the first twelve years or so of his career and then wear and tear and injuries took their tool .. to dismiss him is incorrect in my book .. we can't judge Roy Jones by his late career either ..
     
  12. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The mystery of mystery's, this question. How would a prime 147 pound Joe Walcott fare against the prime welterweight Ray Robinson, who I saw in HIS hayday ??? That bout would be the key to answering the question of "how good were the old-time great fighters" ?.
     
  13. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    But Joe never beat Sam or Joe Gans i.e. Greb beat a higher level of competition. Also, during his prime Joe lost to worse fighters than Greb lost to in his prime. It is also a fact that in less fights he lost and drew far more and those losses and draws feature MANY more mediocre opposition or lower quality opposition than Greb's resume. What was Walcott's best win? He never beat anyone as good as Greb and doesn't have the high class wins that Greb does. Its debateable at best that Walcott was even as good as Mickey Walker (I would pick Walker head to head and his resume). Greb beat several men as good as Walcott or better. Walcott never beat anyone remotely as good as Greb. This isn't a knock on Walcott who is a great fighter and one of my favorites but Im not going to pretend for the sake of a dying man that Walcott was better in my opinion than Greb or that Johnson's opinion means any more than anyone elses.
     
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  14. reznick

    reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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    In a filmed interview, a mid aged Dempsey rates Walcott in his top 10 of all time.