Best heavyweight Jim Jeffries could beat?

Yeah when I argue the side of the old timers he doesn't claim I'm wrong he just has a different view. I think that's why I'm always digging
Trying to obtain as much info as possible so I can really think about these mythical matchups in my head. It's clear looking at some of the earliest film captured that the game was different. Much more grappling, less punches thrown, smaller gloves many many more small things as well.. As you said we will truly never know, I can see both sides of it honestly..

 

Johnson first became a factor at world level when he beat George Gardiner in late 1902, and remained so until he lost the title to Jess Willard in 1915.

That is a thirteen year period where he was routinely beating top contenders, usually multiple ones in the same year.

Whatever you think of the era, that is a phenomenal run of form, which only ended because he was artificially frozen out of the picture.

 

Does this necessarily matter though?

If you are comparing resumes, then you don’t get extra points because the available contenders were bigger, or because you despatched them in a more aesthetically pleasing manner.

 

Matters to those of us who recognize that size matters in boxing. (I realize that you think there are light heavies who hit as hard as David Tua...)

 

You ultimately have to decide whether you are comparing resume, or hypothetical head to head.

If you are rating a fighter more highly because his opponents were bigger, then you are not rating them based on resume, you are rating them based on something else.

 

KoolKevin,

Size matters! Glove size that is.

Back then the old timers used light 4-6 ounce gloves. Today heavies use 10-12 ounce gloves. There is a huge difference.

So yes, top hitters at heavy ( Fitz ) back then probably hit close to what the Tua does now. Keep in mind Fitz knocked guys cold, and killed three men from boxing. ( one of those matches was an exhibition ).

Nat Fleisher said Fitzsimmons was the best KO man and had the best left hook of the bunch. Better than Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, etc...

High praise even if he's slightly mistaken.

 

Tua probably wouldn't have killed any of those men because none of them would have stayed conscious and upright long enough to sustain prolonged beatings...

 

Didn't they hold back on headshots to avoid breaking their hands?

 

Tua would probably break his hands punching with 4-6 ounce gloves.

 

The above contention is not the same as saying that his resume has greater depth in the heavyweight class than Tyson's.

 

Injured hands back then were more common, which is a reason why body punching was more popular at the turn of the century.

Tua was a low connect rate type, so maybe his hands would have been all right.

Tua turned pro at 201 pounds, and probably would not be much above 215 in that timeline. He would need to watch his weight. No way could he go 15+ rounds in the hot outdoor sun, or in a non-air conditioned arena overweight.

 

The ones Fitz killed didn't last long either.

** This is only a guess, is not only the punch but the fall. Modern Rings have a much better canvas. Old time rings were make-shift, with a much harder floor. Guys falling through the ropes back then was also a much bigger risk. **

Tua didn't look good vs Byrd at all. Jim Corbett out boxing Tua is very possible, especially in the larger ring sizes of the times.

 

It probably is actually.

In terms of elite heavyweights beaten, Johnson’s record is probably third in the history of the division.

Louis and Ali hold the top two slots in whatever order you prefer, then he is number three, with Larry Holmes taking up the fourth slot.

Just how things are on paper.

 

What limited laboratory evidence we have, suggests that the smaller gloves made next to no difference.

 

Inconceivable, imo, given Corbett's stance and his complete lack of exposure to modern punching techniques. Beating men who don't really know how to throw jabs, let alone crisp combinations is poor practice for fighting a man like David Tua.