Why is Roid Jones Junior Loved and Revered Considering He's Been Clipped For PEDs (?)

general zod,

Which shows that he wanted a big fight.

Is this the link you've tried to post:

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxingchronicle/articles_rjj.html

?

Which tells you what?

It wasn't my intention to purposely skip over anything whilst omitting any information.

Again, my point was to highlight Roy's intentions.

If he genuinely wanted a huge money fight at HW, then I don't care that he wasn't interested in DiBella's proposed LHW tournament.

I've done no such thing.

I fully respect Evander's circumstances.

Once again, my objective was to show what Roy intentions were.

We've discussed this before. That was Roy being a diva, and I don't condone his actions. But yes, I believe he did want a big money fight at HW at that point.

Okay, fair enough. I'll retract my original statement.

I'll change it to:

His father didn't want him to go through with it.

Roy is extremely close to his mother, Carol. But at the end of the day, what does she know about boxing?

Big Roy turned him into a fighting machine from the age of 7. Big Roy is the guy who tortured him and helped hone his unique set of skills. Roy has a very unusual relationship with his father. He always has, and he always will have.

When Big Roy stepped in to stop the Douglas fight, it was the first time in almost 6 years that they'd spoken properly.

Although they didn't always see eye to eye, Roy was always going to take boxing advice from his father, over his mother.

Here's a quote from Big Roy regarding Douglas, which can be seen on the documentary - Beyond The Glory:

"I ain't saying he can't whoop him, but I wouldn't drive a Volkswagen into a Big Mack truck. Too much mass"

Think about this:

1. It shows you that Roy truly wanted a big money HW fight at the time.

2. Evander was much smaller than Douglas.


Douglas:

Height - 6'3

Reach - 83"

Weight - 240-260 pounds


Evander:

Height - 6'2

Reach - 78"

Weight - 210-220 pounds


The above stats, is why I believe that Big Roy didn't block a potential fight against Evander, and why he also didn't block the fight with Ruiz.

Look at the height, reach and weight that Roy would have conceded, had he have fought Douglas:

Height - 4" disadvantage

Reach - 9" disadvantage

Weight - 40-60 pounds disadvantage


We know Buster was faded at that point, but he'd strung a few wins together, so you could understand Big Roy's concern.

He may have exaggerated or outright lied in the past, but sometimes you've accused him of lying even though your facts have been wrong.

Again, the only side you're concerned with, is anything that shows Roy in a negative light.

I quote more relevant specifics than you do.

You purposely omit information to push your agenda.

No, he wasn't. But I think we've now established why not.

You've misunderstood my point.

What I was trying to say, was that Roy only holding one belt and then relinquishing it, shouldn't have put a complete halt to DiBella's proposed LHW tournament.

 

Wlad??????:huh

And Vitali opened up his medical records to his amatuer management who then ensured him the steroids given him to hasten the healing of his torn meniscus, ligament, and muscle, would no longer be detectable and/or he would be granted an exemption for medical use.

His DR gave em to him. Just as does BHOPs, Peterson's, and Roid Mayflowers.

Sadly, there are no NDAs(BHOP), 6-1 detection rates(ROID/USADA) or NO TESTING AT ALL in DC(Peterson) in the European Amatuer testing program.
And the Brit's are nearly as strict. :hi:

 

What about roy vs Tyson?

 

general zod,

With hindsight, yes. But back in 96, Brewer had 4/5 losses, and he'd been knocked out twice. Lonnie Beasley knocked him out in the first round.

Fair enough, but how much credit would Roy have gotten for trying to fight Guthrie who'd been knocked out by Reggie Johnson in 5 rounds?

Yes, but again, you can hardly blame Roy for not kicking up a fuss and demanding an eliminator between Kelly and Reggie Johnson. Not when he'd recently beaten him.

Again, the organisations are to blame, not the fighters.

Yes, but I was wondering if guys like Del Valle and Reggie would have wanted to have faced Roy again.

We both know that if Roy doesn't want to do something, then he won't.

Yes, but only if Harding won.

A fight with Evander would have been a very big fight, even though Evander was past his best.

Not right away he didn't. He considered fighting Corrie Sanders before he went back and wanted more money.


What does any of the above have to do with my original statement though?

I'm not bothered what other fighters did. Again, Roy didn't do anything that he didn't want to do.

:good

It's both.

 

its one time he was caught, weighed against a near historic precendent.

 

general zod,

Yes, he was looking for a big money fight at HW. But we know that Tarver was at the back of his mind. Roy has a huge ego and Tarver pi$$ed him off.

http://www.secondsout.com/usa-boxing-news/usa-boxing-news/jones-vs-tarver-already-at-boiling-point

He was still considering remaining at HW in August of 2003, and he didn't sign to fight Tarver until September.

Why do you keep saying that he had no choice?

You criticise him heavily for relinquishing his belt and ducking Nunn. Yet you're telling me he HAD to fight Tarver?

Again, Roy didn't do anything he didn't want to do.

If Roy had feared Tarver and not have wanted to have fought him, then he wouldn't have done so under any circumstances.

We don't know enough about either of those things to really discuss them in detail, but they have nothing to do with my original point.

Yes, he didn't need belts to make fights. But again, I'm looking at the big fights that didn't get made whilst he had belts.

Again, if the biggest fights that he missed out on couldn't have been made whilst he held the belts, there's nothing to suggest that those fights would have happened if he hadn't have held them.

It's just foolish to think otherwise.

Also, you can't speak for all fighters when you say that money and legacy mean more than belts.

If he'd have vacated his belts, he would have had to have continuosly fought keep busy fights against the likes of Harmon and Gonzalez, whilst he hoped to eventually land a big fight.

Now give me some realistic opponents that he could have fought at that point, knowing what we know today.

The biggest fights that Roy missed out on were against the likes of: Liles, Benn, Collins, Dariusz, Bernard, Jirov and Calzaghe etc.

So how would things have played out any differently?

The politics with King would still have been there.

Dariusz, Liles, Bernard and Joe would still not have wanted to have fought him.

Now that's realistic. So what would have happened if those big fights couldn't have been made after he'd relinquished his titles?

HBO and the fans would have been just as frustrated as they were, and Roy would have been in a terrible position. He'd have had to have sat back and watched fighters fight for his old belts. Fighters who would have been lesser fighters, and maybe even fighters who he'd already beaten.

Now that is a realistic scenario. And that would have been demoralising for Roy, and it'd left the division in complete chaos.

If Roy couldn't have landed any big, meaningful fights, he'd have been left out in the cold.

Again, HBO would have been left with an unhappy fighter on their hands, who'd have had less bargaining power at the negotiating table.

How many fighters would truly have wanted to have fought Roy for nothing at stake, when they could have pursued lesser fighters for titles?

You're an intelligent guy, so think about it logically.

As above.

Also, it would be completely unfair to even ask a fighter to relinquish his belts.

 

general zod,

Okay. It does appear that O'Halloran either lied or he was misinformed.

How is that a lie?

The value of his input is open to speculation, but he did train him.

And?

O'Halloran wasn't the head trainer, but he still played a part.

Again, you're reaching.

Could O'Halloran and Roach not have both trained him and given him advice that he took on board?

He was his one time manager, and he obviously played a huge role in his success.

From your link:

O'Halloran was with Liles for 4-5 years, and as above, they lived together.

Overall, he played a bigger role in his career than what Roach did:

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/box10-97.htm

Roy wasn't blatantly lying there at all.

You are mistaken.

When did Frank W ever manage and promote Liles outright?

In that interview that you've uploaded from July, 1996, Roy said that they were in the process of negotiating, which ties in with all of the other information that we know of.

Liles was still promoted by King at that point.

His rematch with Littles was aired on Showtime and Sky, by Frank W and King.

You can listen to Liles talk about King promoting him, in his post fight interview with Showtime, after the rematch with Littles from June, 1996:

(go to 12 min, 20 secs)

http://youtu.be/Mm7FTfkCY7Q


Liles then went on to sign a contract extension in 1997.

 

O'Halloran obviously wasn't speaking literally. He was obviously implying that Liles was never as good as he'd been when they were together.

Again, you're reaching.

We know that O'Halloran played a big part in his career for 4-5 years.

These quotes below are very strong statements to make:

You seriously think he was lying?

Why?

He obviously cared a lot about him and invested a lot of time in him.

 

Let's look at the evidence to hand:


Evidence against Liles wanting to fight Roy:

Roy's live pre fight Brannon interview, that was authorised by Seth Abraham and Lou DiBella.

Jack O'Halloran's comments verifying what was said in Roy's interview.


Evidence for Liles wanting to fight Roy:

Post fight comments after beating Nunn, whilst on a high, filled with adraneline.

Using the above as evidence that Liles wanted to fight Roy, would be like using Calzaghe's post fight comments against Will McIntyre, as some sort of evidence that he wanted to fight Roy.


You can believe whatever you want. But I'll take the information gathered from Roy and O'Halloran's interviews, over comments made by Liles in a post fight interview from almost 2 years earlier.


Regarding Benn, Collins and Nunn, no, those specific fights weren't about the belt. But the politics with King would always have made a Benn fight difficult, and Collins hadn't been active in the late 90's. Roy wouldn't have gotten any credit had he have faced Collins at that point.

 

1. I agree regarding Nardiello. But according to the pre Brannon interview, that again, was authorised by Abraham and DiBella, he wouldn't take on Roy to unify. Not that I could blame him. Why would he have wanted to have fought Roy when he'd just won the belt.

2. I've given you links where Abraham and DiBella were quoted as giving Roy their full support.

3. Not according to the pre Brannon interview, which again, Abraham and DiBella okayed before it was aired.

Just because he lowballed Nunn, it doesn't make what he said in his interview false.

 

general zod,

The offer that was reportededly offered to Roy, was between 1998-2001.

In that period, he fought the likes of Hill, Del Valle, Hall and Harmon.

According to various reports, he made the following:

Hill - $4m

Del Valle - $4m

Hall - $4m

Harmon - $5m


You also mentioned in an earlier post that HBO paid him around $5m per fight.


My original point though, was that Dariusz didn't want to go to the U.S. to fight Roy, even though every belt at LHW would have been on the line. Which means, if Roy had relinquished his belts like HBO wanted, the fight still wouldn't have been made. In fact, they'd have been even less of a chance of it happening.

According to an interview by Roy in 2012, HBO also made Dariusz a $5m offer to go to the U.S.

The fight could well have been PPV if it had've been marketed right, with Dariusz going over to fight in front of a live U.S. audience beforehand.

The double header that was proposed was a great idea, if Dariusz had been open to it, and he'd have been paid well.

Again, the point is, with or without the belts, the above obstacles/politics would have remained. Which again, was my initial point. If Roy had relinquished his belts, the potential big fights against the likes of Dariusz, wouldn't just suddenly have appeared by magic.

Tell that to Dariusz.

It's no good quoting Roy from 1997. Again, no, he didn't need belts to make fights. But he had more chance of making the biggest fights out there with his belts, rather than without them.

Again, we know what happened. We know the big fights he missed out on and the reasons behind them. So him relinquishing his belts, wouldn't have changed any of the circumstances that he was faced with.

 

Thread starter you have never boxed, you are clueless, please follow MMA.

 

general zod,

I agree. But my point still stands.

If Joe didn't want to fight the unified LHW champ for his belts, then he'd probably have been even less inclined to fight him without them.

Of course it would have been huge.

Roy was the consensus pound for pound number 1, and Bernard was riding high after his win over Tito.

Every boxing fan who was watching back then knows of their famous argument that was aired live on HBO.

"60/40 I'll kick yo ass!"

That's legendary.

True, but had Bernard have wanted to, he could have moved up to LHW to fight Roy.

He moved up 4 years later, and he admitted in 2008 that he could have moved up 6 years earlier had he have wished to.

Once again, my point was that with or without the belts, fights with Dariusz, Bernard and Joe, just wouldn't have happened.

We both know that unless you pull up to my house with Marty McFly in the Delorean, I can't give you any actual evidence. But I've repeatedly given you logical scenarios all throughout this thread.

Again, Roy relinquishing his belts, would have had no bearing on trying to secure fights with Dariusz, Bernard, Joe and Liles etc. And I say that in complete confidence.

You don't need a crystal ball.

Again, the politics with King and Kohl would still have been there.

Bernard and Joe wouldn't suddenly have wanted to have fought him.

Relinquishing the belts wouldn't suddenly have made things happen that weren't possible beforehand.

Logic states that with all the will in the world, he'd have mainly fought keep busy fights against guys like Harmon and Hall.

In my honest opinion, things would have worked out badly for everyone involved: Roy personally, the network, the division, and the fans.

Look what happened when Tyson Fury was recently stripped. We ended up with a vacant title fought between Martin and Glaskov. Apart from the two fighters fighting for the belt, those type of fights don't do anyone any good.


Now if you don't agree with the above, tell me realistically, what you think would have happened. Because you stating that he'd have had a better relationship with HBO, and that he'd have saved money on sanctioning fees, just doesn't cut it for me.

Give me a specific breakdown of your opinions.


Great debate.


:good

 

What about it mate?

 

why are people mentioning PEDs and weightlighting? lol PEDs don't help you gain muscle, steroids do. the PEDs that boxers use are mostly stimulants that causes ridiculously increased awareness, and focus. it's kind of like taking adderall. roy jones reflexes just might have came from his PED usage. who's to say he wasn't on them for his entire career?