Phantom punch my ****!

Easy there! Yes. Reznick loves Ali blindly and fanatically at times. There are worse sins. He also posts some great footage, stuff that fans, both old and new can enjoy! He is a positive influence not a blowhard trying to exclude fans whose opinions differ from his in a sport that could more fans.

 

I read it. I doubt that you have or you wouldn't be citing it.
It's totally meaningless.
'1,200 people who saw the punch all agreed it stunned Liston' or words to that effect.

I doubt that even you are stupid enough to believe the writer could know that.

 

BillB, I admire your patience in dealing with certain goof***** on this thread.

:good

 

He's making an assumption that 1,200 fans had a good view of the punch, based on where they were sitting.

It's that simple

This whole ordeal is a messy issue. We're still debating it till today. This ringside report, with multiple direct quotes, shouldn't be dismissed just because it's convenient to do so.

 

https://media.riffsy.com/images/9787bdf3993c9a20dffe6556e244bc4d/raw

 

:good

 

Billy needs an interpreter.

 

What objective evidence?

We have the film. We interpret the film. We have the immediate post-punch and post-fight reactions and untterances, we can try to interpret them.
Yes, a punch landed.
Ali reacted in the way he did. Liston reacted in the way he did. I try to make a reasonable interpretation of that behaviour.
I am open to alternative interpretations of Ali's gestures, body language and behaviour, but none of them so far have been convincing.

On balance, I think Liston's physical reactions to the punch were bad acting. They look fake to me and they look fake to many other reasonable postors here. People have other explanations but again I don't find them convincing.

Show me your "objective" evidence and enlighten me.

 

Yeah, opinions at ringside were divided. Many people swore they saw the punch and it was a nothing punch. The SI article is a joke to say there was never any doubt.
Ali didn't even know what punch Liston had gone down from.

 

What about Joe Gans versus Terry McGovern ?
Gans went down 3 or 4 times if I remember rightly. Most people agree he was diving.

 

Just watched the fight again.
There's really no need to even watch Liston, just watch Ali.
Ali's reaction says it all. I don't blame him for being p!ssed off, he was a great fighter in his absolute prime and he wanted to show the world his fighting abilities, not have his opponents bailing out of him before the fight's even got going !

You can even see Ali mouthing "Did I hit him ? Did I hit him?" to a member of his entourage just before they announce the official result.

From the post-fight interview, while watching the replay :

---"Why are you standing over him, Muhammad ?"
---"I'm tryin' to tell the bum to get up and fight ! people paid all that money.... "
---"Why are doing that ? Tell me why."
[few seconds SILENCE, then:]
--- "Didn't I tell ya ? Didn't I tell ya ... (then to his entourage) Hold it ! Hold it ! Don't say nothing ! ..... Didn't I tell you my poem .... "

etc. etc.


If people really want to interpret the whole thing as 100% legit that's up to them, but I'm under no illusions.
Liston oversold that punch. He took a dive.
Ali made the best of a bad situation.
That's it.
These things happen in boxing, it's unfortunate but they happen too much.

 

Well, Liston wasn't given the luxury of being allowed to continue diving so I'll chalk it up to poor officiating.

 

Something was fishy

 

Agree with all of this.