Pre 1900 heavyweights.

Jack Johnson was better than any pre 1900 hw.

 

I don't have much of an opinion mainly because the footage is almost non-existent.

I believe John L. Sullivan and Peter Jackson must have been great in their primes.

 

Interestingly, in 1911, Jack Johnson suggested the following:

1. his toughest fight was against Hank Griffin - a pre 1900 fighter.
2. Bob Fitzsimmons was the greatest fighter of his weight and through some leather which would have finished him if he connected regularly - a pre 1900 fighter.
3. Joe Choynski - who tkod him, hit him harder than any fighter ever has - a pre 1900 fighter.



http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129935785?searchTerm=hank griffin&searchLimits=


It is also interesting that amoung aside from Griffin and Choynski, Jack Johnson also had his losing fights with Haines among others.

I know Johnson did improve, obviously, but it is possible even likely that the pre 1900 fighters were a lot better than given credit for nowadays. Jackson, Fitzsimmons, Sullivan, Corbett etc were actually considered a golden age at the time.

 

The decade before 1900 was extremely strong, across nearly all weigth classes.

 

Each era produced ATG fighters. The game was different in those days. It was a raw and dangerous sport not for the faint hearted.

 

The division has almost never had depth below the top half dozen.

In fact, I would say it has only gained any modicum of depth over the last 25 years as guys are able to keep their bodies fresher longer...

 

The division back then was pretty much 165 and up. As such it had more depth than you'd think. The problem is the video, and results are severely under-reported.

My rankings for the pre 1905 era at heavyweight were thus:


1885-1905 Pioneer era: The transitional time between bare knuckles and London Prize ring rules to Queensberry rules.

1.Jeffries
2.Fitzsimmons
3A. Jackson
3B. Corbett
5. Sullivan
6. Sharkey
7. Slavin
8. Ruhlin
9. Goddard
10. Griffin
11. Maher
12. Choynski
13. Hart
14. McCoy
15. O’Brien


Heavyweight action sees 1890-1889 like this:


http://www.heavyweightaction.com/Decade 1890s.html


(1) Jim Jeffries 6’1”, 218- Jeffries came out of Ohio and came on strong during the decade and by the end had captured the title from Fitzsimmons in a 11-KO. His two draws were against Joe Choynski and Gus Ruhlin. His victories were over Joe Goddard, and over the hill Peter Jackson, Tom Sharkey(2) and. Bob Armstrong. Jeffries was a former sparring partner of Jim Corbett, (11-0-2)

(2)-Bob Fitzsimmons 5’11”, 167- Fitzsimmons was from New Zealand and was one of the most dominate fighters of the decade eventually winning the heavyweight, light heavyweight and middleweight titles. His loses were to Jim Hall, Tom Sharkey and Jim Jeffries. Victories during the decade were against Nonpareil Jack Dempsey, Peter Maher(2), Jim Hall, Tom Sharkey and Jim Corbett. His draw was against Joe Choynski. (25-3-1) 2 NC

(3)- Jim Corbett 6’1”, 184- Corbett represented San Francisco and the west coast. He was considered a great fighter but was not real active during the decade. His wins were over Jake Kilrain, John L. Sullivan and Charley Mitchell. He lost to Fitzsimmons and Tom Sharkey on a disqualification. Probably his most memorable fight of his career was his 61 round draw and Australian, Peter Jackson.(5-2-1) 1 NC

(4) Peter Jackson 6’1 ½”, 200- Legendary heavyweight from Australia who John L. Sullivan refused to fight because of his color. Jackson fought a 61 round draw against Jim Corbett in 1892 in San Francisco. During the decade he defeated Denver Ed Smith, Joe Butler and Frank Slavin. He fought a draw against Joe Goddard and after his health failed late in the decade he lost to Jim Jeffries and Jim Jeffords. (10-2-1)

(5) Tom Sharkey 5’8”, 183- Sharkey was most remembered for his 1899 battle against Jeffries for the heavyweight title that he lost in a 25 round fight. His first big victory was an 8-KO over Joe Choynski in 1896. His other big wins were over Bob Fitzsimmons(questionable), Joe Goddard, Gus Ruhlin, and Disqualification win against Corbett and Kid McCoy. Both losses were to Jeffries. He fought draws against Corbett, Peter Maher and Choynski.(33-2-5) NC.

(6) Peter Maher 5’11 ½”, 182- Maher was one of the top heavyweights of the decade and probably the most active. Maher hailed from Ireland he defeated George Godfrey, Joe Butler, Steve O’Donnell(4), Frank Slavin, Joe Choynski, Joe Goddard, Ed Dunkhurst(2) and Joe Kennedy. His losses were to Bob Fitzsimmons twice and Joe Goddard twice. He fought a draw against Jim Hall, Tom Sharkey and Gus Ruhlin. (101-4-2)

(7) Joe Choynski 5’10”, 167- Choynski was another great fighter who hailed from San Francisco, and fought all the great fighters of the period. His losses were against all the top fighters of the decade, Joe Goddard(2)Tom Sharkey, Peter Maher, Gus Ruhlin and Kid McCoy. His victories were over George Godfrey, Denver Ed Smith and Goddard. He fought and unusually high number of draws probably because of gambling interest in the fight game. Draws were against Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, Tom Sharkey and Kid McCoy. (38-6-6) 3 NC

(8) Gus Ruhlin 6’0”,190 –Ruhlin was one of the lesser known heavyweights of the decade but his 20-draw against Jeffries definitely gets some attention even if he on his back when the final bell rang. He came out of the state of Ohio. Victories were over Joe Goddard and Joe Choynski, his were losses were to Kid McCoy, Tom Sharkey and Joe Kennedy.(14-4-2)

(9) Kid McCoy- 5’11”, 163- One of the top light heavyweights of the day McCoy also battled the top heavyweights. He defeated Peter Maher, Joe Choynski, Gus Ruhlin and “Twin” Sullivan.” Loses include Jim Corbett(Probably a fake fight), Kid Carter and Jack Root. He fought draws against Tommy Ryan and Philadelphia Jack O’Brien.(14-3-1)

(10) Jim Hall 6’0 ½”, 167- Another small fighter from Australia who held down victories over Bob Fitzsimmons, Tommy Ryan, Joe Choynski and Frank Slavin. Hall fought two fights that were fixed against Frank Slavin and Kid McCoy. Losses were to Owen Sullivan and Dan Creedon. He fought draws against Peter Maher and Ed Dunkhurst. (30-10-3)

(11) Joe Goddard 6’0”, 180- Another of the long line of heavyweights from Australia during the period. He defeated Mick Dooley(2), Joe Choynski, Tom Lees, Joe McAuliffe, Peter Maher, Owen Sullivan and Denver Ed Smith. His losses were to Denver Ed Smith, Harry Laing, Tom Sharkey, Jim Jeffries, Peter Maher, Joe Choynski, Gus Ruhlin(2), and Kid McCoy. He had draws against Peter Jackson, Tom Lees, and Bob Armstrong. He was very strong during the early part of the decade with most of his losses coming during the later part of the decade. (28-13-9)

(12) Jake Kilrain 5’10 ½”, 195- One of the big names from the past was still competitive during the early part of the decade defeating George Godfrey. His losses included Jim Corbett, Frank Slavin, Steve O’Donnell(2), and Frank Slavin. He had one draw against Steve O’Donnell. (11-5-1)

(13) Steve O’Donnell 6’0 ½”, 182- In 1895 O’Donnell fought for the vacated heavyweight title against Peter Maher only to lose in a 1 round knockout. The Australian had a fine record during the decade defeating Owen Sullivan, Frank Slavin and Jake Kilrain. He lost to Peter Maher(4), Gus Ruhlin, Kid McCoy and Joe Choynski. He fought draws against George Godfrey and Jake Kilrain. (20-9-4)

(14) Dan Creedon 5’8”, 165- Creedon was another tough smaller fighter from New Zealand. He held wins over Jim Hall and loses to Bob Fitzsimmons, Kid McCoy and Joe Walcott(4). He fought a draw against Joe Choynski. (32-8-8)

(15) Frank Paddy Slavin 6’1 ½”, 185- Another great heavyweight from down under, Slavin defeated Joe McAulifee, Jake Kilrain and Joe Butler. He lost to Peter Jackson and Jim Hall in a fake fight, Bob Armstrong(2), Peter Maher, Steve O’Donnell, Joe Butler, Jim Hall and Tommy Lees.(12-8-2)

(16) George Godfrey 5’10 ½”, 175- Canadian Godfrey entered the decade well past his prime and 37 years old. He had wins over Patsy Cardiff and Denver Ed Smith. His losses were against Jake Kilrain, Joe Choynski and Peter Maher. He had two draws against Steve O’Donnell and Joe Butler.(5-3-3)

(17) Frank Childs 5’9 ½”, 173- Nicknamed the crafty Texan, Childs defeated Bob Armstrong(3), Joe Butler, Ed Dunkhorst and Mexican Pete Everett. He lost very seldom. Two of his loses were against Dan Creedon and Joe Choynski. (26-4-4)

(18) Joe Butler 6’0 ½”, - A middleweight from Philadelphia, Armstrong had a fine career defeating Bob Armstrong, Frank Slavin and Ed Dunkhurst. He lost to Peter Maher, Frank Slavin, and Bob Armstrong. He had a draw against George Godfrey. (31-11-3)

(19) Ed Dunkhurst 6’3”, 230- A big heavyweight from Syracuse, New York. He had many losses to his credit losing to Gus Ruhlin, Peter Maher(2), Joe Choynski, Frank Childs and Joe Butler. He fought draws against Jim Hall and Bob Armstrong. He also had a win over Bob Armstrong.(13-8-5)

(20) Bob Armstrong 6’3”, 187- Armstrong was very competitive beating Frank Slavin(2), Joe Butler, Mexican Pete Everett, and Jim Jeffords. He lost to Joe Butler, Jim Jeffries, Mexican Pete Everett, Frank Childs(2) and Ed Dunkhorst. Armstrong fought draws against Joe Choynski, Ed Dunkhorst and Joe Goddard. (12-8-6)

 

Yes, I agree to some degree. That was kind of my point. Comparing that era to later eras, it doesn't require much depth to compare favorably... at least in the regards of depth and competitiveness.

 

Geroge Siler who saw them both said Jackson was greater by long odds, and mentioned that Jackson hit much harder. As the third man in the ring for both of them and decent writer, he's an authority of the times.

Johnson seemed to get better around 1906, but the field post-Jeffries, Corbett and Fitz was much weaker in 1905.

The best black talents in Langford, Jeannette and McVey did not reach their peak abilities until 1907-1908, and remained very good for several years. So as Johnson improved, the field became much weaker. As champion, he pretty much barred the best talents.

Pre 1900 Johnson had his hands full, and post-1900-1905, he lost to Choynksi, Klondike, Griffin and Hart, with some dubious draws. Had Johnson won these fights you could make a much better case for him, but he didn't.

 

Hey don't tell us any fighter ever came from Australia that was good, I have it on good authority from Klompton that Australia only ever produced bums.




Now to ignore what he says..... GREAT POST man, GREAT.

 

Can we talk about pre 1880 London Prize Ring fighters ? I believe Daniel Mendoza was the greatest of them or at least the most influential even though he cannot be regarded as a heavyweight, Tom Cribb certainly was and by all accounts he was a very great fighter. I read an article written by a fight trainer from around the 1850's (where the article was written) who said that the current crop at that time were rather poor compared to Cribb and co from that era, maybe just an old man's bias but it was an interesting and thought provoking read.... it seems the sport was declining in the last couple of decades and mainly because fighters and those putting on fights risked jail and other harsh penalties and therefore the public interest wasn't as great as it was 1800-20

 

From 1880-1920, there was a lot of talent in the area.

Peter Jackson, Les Darcy, and Young Griffo to name a few. Any true historian values the news press, photos', and film of the time from down under.

 

There was a short period between Sullivan and Jeffries, where Australia and New Zealand arguably produced the deepest body of talent of any part of the globe.