Is Larry Holmes

The point your talking about, Larry has beat six of the top ten anyway! Within months of C00ney he beats Witherspoon too. (Witherspoon has beat Ratliff and Snipes. That is certainly enough for spoon to be a serious contender. because later Page, after losing to Berbick, lands a higher rating beating the same guy)

Right after Holmes beating Witherspoon, Dokes has his obligatory Coetzee defence (traditional for WBA champions back then) and since Dokes is tied up with that one Holmes picks unranked Frank just to stay busy the same month that Coetzee beats Dokes in an upset.

Now with Coetzee and Holmes as the two champions the biggest fight out there is Holmes v Coetzee not Holmes vs Page.

Larry wants this fight but when it looks like Coetzee wants more time out of the ring he is offered big money for Frazier and Larry takes this hoping the WBC will allow him to still peruse Coetzee next.

The WBC already sanction Frazier are no doubt irritated that Larry is more concerned with fighting a rival champion next rather than their own #1 challenger then start unnecessarily campaigning for Larry to fight Page next. but Larry only has eyes for Coetzee after Frazier.

I think Larry walks away from the WBC under the umbrella of the IBF to pursue Coetzee. By the time that fight falls through the WBC title has been won and lost again and Larry and Coetzee have to take seperate fights in order to defend their own titles. Coetzee picks a guy losing fights and Larry picks a guy winning fights.

Coetzee lost his belt to underdog Page.

Larry then signs to fight the guy Coetzee should have fought David Bey because he beat Page. It was losing to Bey that actually got Page the shot at Coetzee!!!

Ali and Joe Louis did a much better job cleaning out their division because nobody is giving a #5 guy a fight with a #2 guy and calling the winner a WBA champion which then elevates this winner into Ring Magazine #1 contender.

Imagine Bob pastor v pat Komiskey creating a rival champion the winner losing to Lou Nova who sits on the belt for 14 months before losing back to Bob pastor who by then had also lost to Joe Louis. The whole time Joe Louis is taking care of business, he's chasing Max Schmeling who he beats, but Pastor takes so much time out he then fights say Godoy right after he lost controversially to Joe Louis and beats him clearly then loses to Billy Conn.

I'm sorry but if that happened I think Joe Louis (like Holmes) is the real champ because he beat Schmeling and all those ex champions, he's more active, consistent and he beat Bob Pastor before he was WBA champion in this fantasy scenario.

 

Something tells me that if another guy won a belt in Louis's time, Joe would be in the ring with him before that guy had a chance to leave the arena with it

 

Holmes' win over #1 came when Weaver was ranked #8 almost four years earlier! The wins that moved Weaver up to #1 all came AFTER he fought Holmes. Holmes never fought the #1 ranked Weaver. Aside from the unproven but heavily hyped C**ney (who incidentally didn't face/beat anyone in that top ten) Holmes never fought any of the rest of the top five either. He did clean out the bottom half of the top ten though!

Ratliff who? He was just an unknown prospect as well. You simply can't get around the fact that Spoon had had 15 fights and just ten rounds against a recognisable contender. How do you think a 15-0 Holmes fares against Ali? How about a 15-0 Lewis against Mike Tyson, a 15-0 Wlad against Lewis, a 15-0 Marciano against Joe Louis?

So while Dokes fights his #1 challenger, Holmes fights an unranked club fighter. Then Holmes refuses to face his #1 contender (after demanding $5m, a sum he never made for any fight outside of C**ney), chooses to face a ten fight novice instead, and throws away his belt (in the process helping another ABC establish itself) because the WBC won't sanction that mismatch. Then, after four years of ignoring Coetzee and the WBA champs, Holmes suddenly decides he wants to fight Coetzee when he starts seeing $ signs.

Champions were supposed to make a mandatory defence once a year. Holmes' last mandatory was C**ney back in June 82, over a year earlier. In the mean time Holmes had fought three set-ups and a 15 fight greenhorn. That's why the WBC wanted Holmes to fight their #1. You think Holmes dumped the WBC belt to fight Coetzee? I think he dumped it because he didn't want to face his mandatories. Both his actions and his words post-C**ney show he was looking for as many soft touches as he could get. The IBF were so grateful for his defection they were much more accommodating and let him defend against whoever he wanted for the next two years.

Then when the Coetzee fight falls through, he fights another 15 fight rookie Smith, another fight derided as a mismatch. If you think Smith beating an untested Bruno was some major win, bear in mind that months earlier Jumbo Cummings was one punch from KO'ing Bruno as well. So presumably he would have got a shot at Holmes based on that. Replace Smith with Cummings on Holmes' resume and that win is less impressive. But why? Cummings would have KO'd the same Bruno. Smith is only a more impressive win in hindsight because he went on to have a fairly successful career whereas Jumbo did.

So Coetzee defends against the guy Holmes ducked who had been the #1 contender earlier that year. And you think Holmes comes out of all that looking good?

Coetzee lost his belt to the guy Holmes wouldn't fight.

Larry then signs to fight yet another rookie with less than 15 fights. Bey also said he wouldn't fight in South Africa. The WBA's #1, Holmes, already had his heart set on fighting Bonecrusher. Weaver and Thomas were committed to fighting each other. Coetzee had to make a defence and his chose the guy Holmes should have fought who was the #1 ranked contender earlier that same year. Holmes gave title shots to far less deserving challengers. Page in 84 was still easily better than a lot of Holmes' challengers, which he proved by dominating and KO'ing Coetzee in front of Coetzee's home crowd. You already said Coetzee was the "logical" #1 when Holmes was trying to fight him. Well, Page beat the logical #1.

By the way, if the intended Holmes fight with John Tate had come off in 1984, how would you have justified it?

How does the Ring ranking the WBA champs as #1 explain Holmes fighting so few men in the Ring's top 5? There was only one WBA title. Ali and Louis did a much better job cleaning out their division because they consistently met the best fighters around. Holmes didn't. In an era with one title, Weaver, Thomas, Dokes, Page etc would still have been the best fighters in the division. If they weren't, who do you think would have been? Zanon? LeDoux? Cobb? Having an alternate title belt actually helped Holmes, as it was a distraction for the best fighters in the division who otherwise would have been focused on him and allowed him to get away with not facing them. In a one belt era, he'd have been forced to fight Page, Thomas etc and there was no IBF to defect to if he didn't fancy them.

How long do you think an alternative champ would have lasted in Louis' era? Joe would have signed to fight him post haste and whacked him out just as quickly. Look what happened in the mid-60s when the WBA and WBC belts were split and we had two heavyweight champs. Ali could have ignored Terrell and claimed he didn't need to face him because he already beat Cleveland Williams who KO'd Terrell years earlier (and he beat Liston who beat Bethea who beat Terrell). Instead, he left no doubt as to who was the real champ by signing to fight him and dominating him.

 

The hwt championship was as splintered as it ever has been during that time. Holmes is not to blame for this splintering that left the paper titles on islands all by themselves. Holmes was THE worlds champion during that time and he had the only legit title in the hwt division. Beating Norton, Shavers and Ali cemented his claim to the real title.

 

And i hadn't read the mag in over a decade or two, or maybe three hahaha. Good work, thanks for the link.

 

There were far better fighters about over the extensive period i nominated. If Cobb was mixed in a lot that included one or two more front line fighters he'd be fine, but he doesn't hold up on his own as a top opponent.

Let me make this clear - Holmes was never chasing a unification against Weaver nor Dokes after him.

I don't hold Dokes against him as from memory he was managed by Kings son or someone similar. They were sating Dokes with the WBA title while hoping he would be the heir apparent when Holmes retired. Obviously you did not know this, but it was common news back in the day.

Before bagging Dokes too much go and see his fight vs Holyfield when he was old and over the hill (but dedicated finally) for a glimpse of what he could have been if not for his drug abuse.

Source? Holmes being stripped had nothing to do with Coetzee. Holmes signed to fight Page. Page actually agreed to postpone some months. The WBC did not sanction Frazier as he was simply not in their top 10. After Frazier Holmes again refused to fight Page, wanting more money than he signed for! You fob Page off as not dangerous etc etc etc yet here Holmes was wanting big bucks to face him. There was a reason.

Page got the fight because Bey refused to go to S.A.

Page put on a clinic against Snipes and beat him soundly. Holmes was almost knocked out by Snipes and Tim had a close one with him. Snipes had been superb in beating Berbick the fight before Page beat him. Lets not glaze over that.

You are just making things up as you go along mate. Coetzee did not even win a title until 4 months after Page beat Snipes. Dear me.

Page was consider FAR better than Witherspoon right after that super card. Holmes struggles with Spoon were attributed at least as much to how much Holmes had slipped vs Witherspoon being better than thought.

Coetzee would have been a big underdog obviously. Coetzee was mostly a one handed fighter and Holmes was still consider a class above. Dokes cocaine abuse before the Coetzee fight may have also come to light by then from memory.

Boxing News picked Bey because Holmes was considered over the hill. A 15 fight journeyman had rocked him multiple times the bout previous and Bey had some youth. Smith was fighting Holmes after stopping Bruno in the 10th and last when Bruno had been easily outboxing him all night.

Tubbs had a huge amateur career.

 

what made Coetzee this #1 contender? He drew his last fight. And so did Dokes. Surely this is proof of a stale mate of talent, nobody was better than the other. Surely Thomas is also #1 with the WBA too? Since beating Leon Spinks, a big win, all Coetzee has done is lost to the last two WBA "champions". This love affair the WBA had with white South Africans was an obsession. They produced stadium crowds, maybe it was money?

Holmes preference to meet the WBA champion was his deciding factor.

The WBC did sanction that mismatch. The WBC wanted to scupper any unification fight and built up Page into a bigger deal than he was. Page got to be #1 only because Berbick (who beat Page) lost his last fight. To make more of an outstanding challenger claim for a WBC #1 Berbick and Page should have rematched. The WBC was so desperate not to deal with the WBA at all. They had a anti South African policy as well.

The only time Larry could have conceivably not ignored Coetzee (before Coetzee had a belt) might have been when Gerrie beat Spinks. I dont see anything between him losing to Weaver and Tate making Coetzee this burning flame of fire the WBA seems to think he was.

Did Larry Ignore the WBA champs or did they just get caught up in losing fights trying to outdo Holmes? Tate did exactly that. Weaver was an accidental winner then got caught up in out of ring problems, was inactive, Holmes had the superfights with Ali and C00ney. Larry even beat Berbick who was more a challenger to Weaver than Larry when he knocked out Tate. Then Dokes and Weaver were tied to the rematch.

Champions were supposed to make a mandatory defence once a year? So what happened to Weaver and Coetzee? Both were inactive, did not fight anybody for over a year each!

who was Larry supposed to fight? Aside from Weaver and Coetzee They were all green horns out there. Page and Dokes had under 23 fights each and they were not all wins. Berbick,Snipes, Witherspoon. Apple's and oranges.

no they just wanted to prevent Larry from fighting the WBA champion. It was childish.

I think Larry prioritised a unification over a #1 ABC challenger who was fat. So what? Isn't that what we wanted, unifications?

They were much more accommodating because they allowed Larry to defend the IBF title against the WBA #1 contender David Bey?

Ring Magazine had Frank Bruno as #9 before the Smith fight. I remember KO magazine had a piece about the upcoming Bruno v Smith fight could produce an exciting new contender. If he took a losing streaker like Page (and won) everybody still would have moaned. Especially if Bonecrusher beat Coetzee. What ever Larry did he could not please anyone.

but the guy blew two fights in a row. David Bey was above Page, that's how it works.

no I think it is all an untidy mess. I think throughout it all, the confusion, lay offs, out of shape belt holders and challengers with women's breasts, fights falling through, etc, the belt holders come out if it far worse than Larry did.
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No Coetzee lost his belt after a 14 month layofff to a guy out of form, who was not his #1 contender and everybody thought he should beat. The introduction of Page then Tubbs as WBA champion started an era of title holders looking more like the "weather girls" from the "it's raining men" music video than real championship heavyweight fighters.

but Larry fought Smith in November and Coetzee lost to Page in December. Are you saying Larry should fight Bey before Smith, instead of Coetzee or Page? Or that Coetzee should fight Bey or Page rather than Larry?

Thomas was committed to fight the guy who was knocked out in his previous fight, a DQ win, who still surpassed Page as an urgent WBC challenger even though he was more a WBA guy? What WBC rated contender had Weaver beat since losing the WBA title. Tony Anthony wasn't rated by the WBC,IBF,WBA, IRS,CIA or FBI

page beat the logical #1 by accident. In an upset. There was so much controversy with an overrunning round, it kept Coetzee in line for yet another automatic WBA rematch and at #1 in their charts for even longer, but somehow, unbelievably, Page took on the buxom 20-0 newby Tony Tubbs ..who beat flabby Greg.

yes there was only one WBA title but that title had a #1 contender too and conflicting ideas of who rated higher than who and the Ring presumably wanted to represent each organisation's leading lights within their own ten. In the case of one Ring top ten there was Dokes then Weaver at #1 and #2. C00ney at #3 (after losing to Holmes) so you have Larry having beat two of the top three. Bellow those you have even more Holmes victims and some that are affiliated more with the opposite title because they might be ranked higher with them but not the other organization.

That's just one top ten but it was much the same.

 

:good

 

Let's apply the commonsense test, no one considered anyone else other than Holmes as the champion.

 

By Michael Katz, the New York Times, June 17, 1985

"Until now, there has been little order in a division where Sugar Ray Leonard, the former welterweight champion, decried the "disgraceful lack of pride" displayed by many so-called leading contenders.
"Maybe there ought to be a 225-pound weight limit," said Leonard, "or at least no one should be permitted into the ring with fat hanging down the sides of his trunks."
Leonard said many heavyweights showed "disrespect" for the sport by fighting in much less than their best condition.
It was Bey's turn Saturday night, but even Witherspoon, not to mention Greg Page or Broad, have also been guilty of fighting while out of shape. Page, Gerry ****ey and Michael Dokes appear to have dissipated their outstanding talents, showing little lust for the game.
With three world champions and a host of minor titles, there has been a desperate need for challengers. Things have got so bad that King has promised Alfredo Evangelista, the Spaniard who has been recycled more times than most aluminum cans, another title shot should he win the European championship again, and 41-year-old Joe Frazier is forever tempted to make one more comeback. "

 

The day this article was written, Holmes was likely the third best of the three champs. I'd favor Tubbs and Thomas to beat him at that time.

Having the IBF title handed to him just further diluted the division as it just allowed him to fight basically whoever he wanted to fight.

Holmes also showed "a lack of pride" by avoiding the best available competition.

Anyway, Mike Tyson was about the show up and clean house.

If Larry had so much pride, maybe he would have tried to clean house at some point.

 

What happened to unifications weren't possible, Holmes didn't need to unify because the WBA champion was "bogus" and Holmes was already the "real" champion anyway? Why the sudden change of heart when Coetzee wins the title?

No they didn't. The Marvis fight was not sanctioned by the WBC. Nevada and New York also refused to sanction it as a title fight. Berbick lost his ranking to Snipes, who then lost an eliminator to Page. Hence Page was #1. Had Page fought Berbick again for the #1 slot, Holmes' next fight would still have been... Marvis Frazier!

Coetzee KO'd Spinks two years before Holmes (a win you say legitimized Holmes as the real champ). Coetzee beat Snipes in the eyes of most who saw the fight, right before Snipes gave Holmes a massive scare. Coetzee KO'd Dokes, whom Holmes wouldn't fight. Coetzee drew with Thomas, whom Holmes wouldn't fight. Coetzee KO'd another Holmes challenger in LeDoux. That alone puts him above puts him above a large number of Holmes' challengers. Want to compare his record with Zanon, Cobb, Rodriguez and the gang?

Yes Larry did ignore them, preferring soft touch defences against rookies and guys on the fringes while the best fighters tackled each other. Even his superfights were soft touches. An old sick Ali and an overhyped unproven C**ney who hadn't beaten one fighter in that 82 top ten you keep posting. Are you going to argue that fights with LeDoux, Berbick, Spinks, Snipes and Cobb were bigger than a unification bout with Weaver? So what he beat Berbick? Berbick was just an inexperienced fringe contender, a 50-1 underdog and went 15 rounds with Holmes despite having never been past round 10 before.

Holmes went a full year without a fight and over THREE years without facing a #1 contender!

Yeah, why fight greenhorns with 23 fights when you can fight even greener greenhorns with 13, 14, 15, 10, 15, 14 and 16 fights like Holmes did. The WBA champs were fighting seasoned veterans by comparison.

It's not childish to expect the champion to meet a top challenger once in a while. Nor to refuse to sanction a total mismatch against an unranked 200lber with 10 pro fights.

If Larry's aim was unification (in 1983, when there had been split titles since 1978 - what about the previous five years?) isn't it strange that when Coetzee lost his title, Larry didn't then pursue unification fights with Thomas, Witherspoon, Page and Tubbs. And that before that he ignored Tate, Weaver and Dokes. What do you think made Coetzee uniquely qualified for a Holmes fight in Larry's eyes?

Were the public demanding he chase Rocky's record against chubby David Bey, an unknown and unranked neophyte named Carl Williams and a skinny career 175lber rather than face the new WBC champ Thomas (and conqueror of two of Holmes' toughest opponents), the new WBA champ Page or a rematch with his old nemesis Spoon.

Holmes' first IBF defence was against Smith, their #11 contender (and the WBC's #15!). Usually a fighter has to be ranked in the ABC's top ten to qualify for a title shot, which is why Holmes ran into problems trying to schedule a title fight with Frazier. So yes that's pretty accommodating.

Bey was never the WBA or anyone else's #1 contender.

Since when does an unranked fighter beating the #9 contender who was also just an unproven prospect elevate them to a title shot? What did Larry expect for fighting Bonecrusher? A round of applause? People were laughing it was considered such a joke of a fight. Smith lost 3 of his next 4 fights, including one to Marvis Frazier of all people, a good indication of his level at the time.

Actually, Bey wasn't above Page when he fought Holmes because in the mean time Page knocked out Coetzee, you know the logical #1 fighter in the division and the only 80s titlist worthy of consideration for a unification fight with Holmes. Page was above Cobb, Rodriguez, Witherspoon, Frank, Frazier, Smith when they all got a shot at Holmes. Are you sure that's how it works?

The upshot was Page, Spoon, Thomas and Cotezee ended up fighting each other while Holmes took a mismatch with Frank, a mismatch with Frazier and what was supposed to be a mismatch against Smith. How could they come out far worse? Sure their records suffered, but that's always the risk when you fight tough competition. They could have protected their records and their titles by fighting Frank and Frazier instead.

I'm saying Larry shouldn't have been fighting Smith at all. He was a fringe journeyman with limited experience and wholly unqualified for a title shot. The fight was derided as a mismatch. It's only a better fight in hindsight because Bonecrusher turned out to be decent. It might just as easily have been Jumbo Cummings fighting Holmes.

Are you still talking about that Weaver-Anthony fight? Weaver was walking back to his corner when Anthony punched from behind. Maybe in some other universe that counts as a KO, but in reality it was a DQ and did nothing to hurt Weaver's standing. Weaver got the fight because he was a still highly ranked and recent ex-champ. If you want to play that game, name the ranked heavyweights that Ali beat to earn his shot at Holmes.

Holmes predicted Page would beat Coetzee. Page beat the hell out of Coetzee, scored numerous knockdowns and finally put him down for a count of 100. What's accidental about that? Ultimately, Coetzee lost to a big, durable, fast, talented fighter who Holmes wouldn't fight and had been ranked #1 just months earlier. Holmes ended up losing his title to a lanky light-heavyweight who hadn't fought a single heavyweight. That's what you call an accidental win. No one, least of all Larry, thought he was going to lose that one. Why else do you think he picked Spinks?

How about the Ring simply compiled a list of who they thought were the ten best heavyweights in the world at the time rather than this convoluted (and unproven) excuse you've come up with to explain why Holmes hardly ever met one of the five top ranked heavyweights, let alone the best.

 

what 20-0 Tubbs is beating 1985 Larry Holmes? The same Tubbs who beat a disinterested Page and lost his next fight (only his second against a name winner) against a half stoned Witherspoon who beat him with marijuana in his system?

Thomas might fare better against Larry than Tubbs, but when all said and done Thomas resume consists of a draw with Coetzee, two wins over Witherspoon and Weaver and a hard loss to Berbick. That's it. Two wins. What's remarkable there? He never replicated the Witherspoon form. Not ever.

Having the IBF title handed to him allowed Holmes to finally persue a rival champion (and sign contracts) which was something the WBC absolutely forbid him to do. but the fight fell through. Then the IBF allowed him to meet the WBA #1 David Bey and take one warm up (Williams) before facing Spinks.

The alternative champions fought (and lost to) Page on a losing streak, unfancied Berbick and 20-0 Tubbs. The one successful win notched up was Thomas beating Weaver after he was knocked out in a DQ farce.

Was that so much better than Larry stopping future champion Smith, stopping #3 rated Bey, struggling with Williams and losing to undisputed lightheavyweight champion Spinks?

Dont you mean HBO was about to "show up" and allow champions to bypass mandatory fights to allow unification fights?

Tyson was allowed to fight the WBC and WBA champions back to back (both Holmes victims by the way) and would have fought the IBF champ right after that had Spinks not walked away so they invented a "vacant" IBF fight just so Tyson could have an individual fight for their title too. They picked two unknowns in Tucker and Douglas to fight for it, and the loser wound up beating Tyson!

Do you think for one second had the HBO got involved earlier Larry Holmes would not have wiped the floor with his rival champions from day one?

How could Larry clean house? There was nothing in place to allow unifications. Each champion was encumbered with mandatory fights and practically banished from unification fights.


Here is an example of some of the madness.


Weaver had a tentative agreement to meet Gerry ****ey on October 22, 1981, but the WBA said Weaver had to fight James "Quick" Tillis next or be stripped of the title. ****ey was ranked #1 by the WBA and Tillis was ranked #3, but the organization said Tillis was the highest ranked contender when Weaver was due for a mandatory defense in March 1981.

Larry did the next best thing rounding up Norton, Shavers spinks and Ali from the old guard. Beating #1 contender for WBA and WBC C00ney as well as future belt holders weaver, Berbick, Witherspoon and Smith.

Don't forget when Larry tried to unify belts, and signed to do so, it created an extra organization and the fight fell through anyway!

 

Funny that the ABCs "forbidding" unification fights didn't stop Leonard, Duran, Monzon, Curry and various others unifying their divisions, nor did it stop heavyweight unifications taking place before and after Holmes. In fact, it was only unifications involving Holmes that were banned, with the exception of 1984, when Holmes decided he wanted to fight Coetzee. As soon as Coetzee lost to Page, unifications were banned again until Spinks beat him, then Tyson cleaned house almost immediately. Five years later, the belts that couldn't be unified were still unified. Even King said there would be no unified champion "until Larry leaves the scene".

 

Tubs nor Thomas would be favored to beat Holmes in 1985.