Is Larry Holmes

Spinks was ranked top 10 when Ali fought him and ranked 3 in the rematch. Wasn't the best choice for his defense but wasn't no Andre Berto.

 

Heavyweight
World Champion:
Larry Holmes (IBF)
1. Pinklon Thomas (WBC)
2. Greg Page (WBA)
3. David Bey
4. Tim Witherspoon
5. Gerrie Coetzee
6. Mike Weaver
7. Michael Dokes
8. James Broad
9. Bonecrusher Smith
10. Gerry ****ey
11. Carl Williams
12. Tony Tubbs
13. Tony Tucker
14. Trevor Berbick
15. Marvis Frazier
Those ratings were March 85. Larry beat Bey that month. Weeks later Tubbs (still rated #12) beats Greg Page for the WBA title. Thomas beats #6 weaver in June. So in 1985 Larry has still beat the highest placed contender out of the three champions,,,,and Page has lost his belt to somebody outside the ratings at #12.

Between March 85 when Berbick is #14 and March 86 when Trevor beats Thomas Larry has already lost to Spinks.

How much higher than 14 is Berbick beating Bey so soon after Larry beat him in a title fight?. Bey was on top against Berbick until he got tired in round 11, he probably wasn't in shape.

Even so, Nobody expected Berbick to beat Bey and certainly not Thomas.

 

Great, you found one of the rare occasions when Holmes actually fought someone in the top five. Shall we also compare his previous two opponents (#10 Frazier and #9 Smith) and his next two opponents (#12 Williams and unranked Spinks) with who Thomas, Witherspoon, Coetzee and Page were fighting at the same time?

When I mentioned that Holmes only fought six men ranked in the Ring's top five, you dismissed those rankings. Something about the Ring trying to fit in each ABC's favoured fighters. Now you want to score a point (which is disingenuous anyway, since the Thomas-Berbick fight was over a year later when the ratings would have changed), suddenly the Ring's ratings are relevant again.

 

It does not matter that a champion fights two bad challengers of three within one year so long as he beats one good one. And with hindsight I dont think Williams and Spinks were that bad.

That year there was three champions. One defended 3 times and actually beat the highest ranking challenger, the other two defended only once each on the year ...and one champion actually lost.

Ultimately, as a rule, the other champions to Holmes always fought far less often and still lost.

Who would have thought it? of the three champions in 1985 Larry fought (and beat) the highest placed contender.

As champions Larry went 2-1 that year. Thomas 1-0, page 0-1.

Larry lost to Spinks in what was supposed to be his retirement fight but beat Bey and Williams.

As it happens Williams for all his inexperience had an awful lot of pedigree, he won new York golden gloves twice when that was a big deal. He was rated higher than Tubbs with Ring Magazine when both were contenders. Carl also showed more than enough attributes in the ring against Holmes to prove he was one of the best fighters at that time which was the proof in the pudding.

 

Nobody thought the paper champions were better than Holmes. Nobody gave the paper champions any great chance of beating Holmes. Holmes was the worlds hwt champion and everyone close to the game understood this.

 

That is completely and utterly untrue. Pinklon Thomas was given every chance after beating Spoon and Weaver in decent fashion. Holmes had just looked most ordinary Williams and had not looked remotely like his old self vs Bey and Smith.

Thomas had decent support. He was seen to be peaking and Holmes was seen to be well past it. It would have been very tight with the oddsmakers.

An interesting tidbit is that John Tate's title was actually the direct link to the WBA one Ali had held and some actually thought this gave his title more validity. Of course that changed as soon as he tried to defend it LOL

Ali was actually look to fight Tate in his comeback bid instead of Holmes. He also was not far away from fighting Weaver once he poleaxed Tate.

Another tidbit is that Tate and Holmes were going to fight in 84 before injury stopped the bout going forward. Of course Tate was **** by then but had won about 9 straight over corpses.

 

You do not know what you are talking about.

Ali was the champion. Spinks beat him. Then Ali beat Spinks. He then retired. The stripping of Spinks and handing the belt to Norton no one took seriously.

Holmes wins over Shavers, No 1 contender Norton and then Ali made him the deserving new hwt champion. The WBA tournament comprised of only their top contenders who were all second raters nobody took seriously (maybe unless you were from Austrailia).

Thomas was a paper champion who won his paper title by beating another contender and nothing more. Thomas would NOT have been a favorite to beat Holmes in 1985. Pure rubbish. Everyone understood the true champion was Holmes and he was considered at that time an ATG. Thomas had not proved himself to be in Holmes league by 1985. Actually he never proved himself to be in Holmes league.

 

Edit

 

The trouble with Holmes is, the weak challengers outnumber the good by 3-1. Even with some of the better fighters he fought, you have to build them up for what they did after facing Holmes because their records when they fought him were pretty undistinguished.

All your fluffing up of Williams doesn't get away from the fact that at the time he was not in anyone's top ten, and was universally considered another inexperienced and unknown soft touch. Saying he was a Golden Gloves winner is laughable. Going by the Ring's rankings, there were 11 better fighters out there that Holmes could have faced. What happened to unification? Of course, had Williams been at the top of the rankings with 25 fights to his name, Holmes would have ignored him anyway.

And if you wish to score points over Thomas and Page using the Ring rankings, then Holmes fought someone in the Ring's top 5 six times in seven years, which isn't very inspiring and pales compared to other champs.

You keep saying Holmes fought the highest ranked contender in 85. He didn't. He didn't fight #1 Thomas or #2 Page. He fought #3, who in hindsight turned out to be pretty rubbish, going 4-10-1 afterwards. You see, hindsight works both ways. For every Witherspoon and Weaver who were successful after Holmes, there are many more Leons and Beys who plummeted like a stone after Holmes. By the end of 85, Bey was out of the Ring's top ten altogether, while Page, Tubbs, Coetzee and Berbick were all in it.

And just to show how much of an aberration it was for Holmes to fight someone highly ranked. In 83, Dokes fought Weaver and Coetzee, both of whom were higher ranked at the time than Holmes' opponents Rodriguez, Spoon, Frank and Frazier. In 84, WBC champ Spoon fought Thomas and WBA champ Coetzee fought Page, both higher ranked than Holmes' opponent Smith. In June 85, Thomas defended against Weaver, who was higher ranked than Williams, who Holmes fought a month earlier, and Spinks, who Holmes fought a few months later.

 

Did I just read that Holmes beating a shot, Parkinsons addled Ali made him the true champ?

Perhaps he should have got an ancient, arthritic Joe Frazier out of retirement as well, just to cement his claim.

 

If an inexperienced, unheralded Carl Williams could bust Holmes up and have the crowd loudly booing the decision, and a goofy light-heavy with no heavyweight experience could dethrone Holmes, then it doesn't take much imagination to see more experienced, more accomplished champs like Thomas or Tubbs doing better. Holmes obviously had the same idea, which is why he ignored his fellow champs and picked two opponents who seemed a lot less threatening, wrongly as it turned out.

Yes Holmes was due to fight Tate in 84, who had done nothing since getting KO'd by Weaver four years earlier, but the promotion collapsed. No cherry picking going on there.

 

Tubbs nor Thomas were hwt champions. Holmes was the hwt champion.

For those who cannot read well..... Holmes became champion on the strength of beating the two top contenders Shavers and Norton and then beating the unretired Ali.

It does not matter who Ali may have talked about fighting. He fought Holmes.

 

Tubbs and Thomas held 33% of the title, just like Holmes did. They actually won their title from someone who won it in the ring. Holmes didn't.

 

Heavyweight
World Champion:
Larry Holmes (IBF)
1. Pinklon Thomas (WBC)
2. Greg Page (WBA)
3. David Bey
4. Tim Witherspoon
5. Gerrie Coetzee
6. Mike Weaver
7. Michael Dokes
8. James Broad
9. Bonecrusher Smith
10. Gerry ****ey
11. Carl Williams
12. Tony Tubbs
13. Tony Tucker
14. Trevor Berbick
15. Marvis Frazier

Out of the three champions who took fights in 1985 from the Ring Ratings Larry fought (and beat) the highest placed contender.

How can this be? Wasn't Larry a cherry picker?

Bey was higher rated than Tubbs and Weaver with Ring Magazine. And those other champs only defended once in 1985.

Let's look at how the three guys starting 1985 as a champion fared in their next three fights. Thomas beats #6 Weaver then loses to Berbick (who was #14 before fighting Bey after Holmes exposed him) then beats a corpse in a comeback fight called narcisco maldanado.

Page was dreadful in 1985. Greg loses to #12 ranked Tubbs in his only fight if 1985. then his next fight in 1986 greg Loses to unranked Buster Douglas and is also knocked out by unranked Mark Wills that year.

Holmes beats #3 Bey, #11 rated Williams then loses to the undisputed lightheavyweight champion.

I kind of think Larry beats Narsico Maldonado even on a bad day, I can't see him lose to Berbick either and I think losing to Spinks is better than losing to an unranked Buster Douglas who David Bey already knocked out.

 

None of this is relevant. It makes no difference weather or not those other guys were truly champs in the people's eyes or if they were or weren't favored to beat Holmes. What IS relevant is that most of them were higher ranked and decisively BETTER than many of those Holmes WAS defending against. It's true that Larry was viewed as lineal champion. But so was George foreman when he lost to Shannon Briggs in 1997 and after years of taking on men like axel Schultz and Crawford grimsley while steering clear of real contenders.. By 1985 Larry Holmes had done little to support his claim of being the best in the world in quite sometime.