Is Larry Holmes

Not a single soul has mentioned Thomas being an ATG. Not a single soul has mentioned Thomas being one of the best heavyweight champions ever.

 

What were the going odds?

 

I remember a KO magazine where they asked fight experts (I'm assuming it was a referee, a trainer, a reporter but I can't remember exactly who) what their prediction on the big fight would be out of Larry or Coetzee. Nobody gave Coetzee a chance. I remember the cover had Larry on the front and the inside poster was Coetzee. It's out there somewhere.

I've been searching the net, it was the April 84' edition of KO. That's the cover I remember anyway.

 

"SPORTS PEOPLE
SPORTS PEOPLE; Holmes vs. W.B.C.
Published: November 29, 1983
Larry Holmes made a triumphant return yesterday to his home in Easton, Pa., but he was still sparring with the World Boxing Council over its insistence that he defend his heavyweight title next against Greg Page instead of Gerrie Coetzee . ''I don't want them to try to dictate to me two days after the fight,'' he said, referring to his first-round knockout of Marvis Frazier on Friday in Las Vegas, Nev.
''I'm semi-retired,'' said the 34-year-old Holmes. ''If the Coetzee fight doesn't come, I'll retire in March. If I don't fight Coetzee, I'll quit.'' Holmes was smarting over reports from Bangkok, Thailand, that the W.B.C. president, Jose Sulaiman , had threatened to strip him of the title if he should fight Coetzee before Page. Holmes had agreed to meet the top-ranked Page in a mandatory title defense in February or March but now says that he can earn much more than the $2.55 million offered for that bout by facing Coetzee, the World Boxing Association champion. ''I don't like to be threatened or told what to do,'' said Holmes, who said he was thinking about relinquishing the W.B.C. title and accepting recognition instead from the International Boxing Association."


The decision to walk away from the WBC was not because Holmes "wanted easier fights" at all. It was because he wanted to peruse a fight with Coetzee.


The Holmes v Coetzee fight was supposed to happen at Ceasers palace in June, then Thomas and Mack centre in september before the whole thing fell through.

 

It's an avoidance strategy. Its been explained to him countless times that Thomas was the most worthy challenger available and that Holmes side stepped him to fight Smith, Bey, Williams, etc.. So rather than arguing THOSE points he's simply sweeping the issue under the carpet and with meaningless rhetoric about Thomas not being true champion or an ATG, which of course while true is also irrelevant. As if David Bey and Carl Williams WERE ATG's and that's why Holmes fought them

 

Boxing is a matter of styles and Coetzee had that right hand power that put Holmes down before. Remember Coetzee KO1 L.Spinks and Holmes fights Spinks 2 years later and remember Snipes was dropped 2X in his fight against Coetzee and Coetzee was robbed and who got the title shot Snipes and the 22 fights Snipes almost had Holmes out. Holmes refused to fight the erratic Page who had a good right hand and Larry gave up a belt, never rematched Weaver, nor did he rematch 15 fight Witherspoon or Williams and many felt Holmes lost. Holmes wound up losing to M.Spinks in Spinks 1st fight as a Heavyweight. Thomas would have been a nice money fight as would Tate before his loss to Weaver. Holmes was navigated pretty well to avoid right hand punchers and the Tyson fight kind of proves that Holmes was vulnerable and kind of fortifies the notion that Holmes was protected from the heavy risk right hand punchers.

 

In addition, it would've been a big event because Coetzee was a white guy with a country behind him. He'd also give Holmes a guy on his resume who bridged the gap to Dokes and Thomas. He beat Dokes and drew with Thomas, so it would be a fight to point to when talking about Holmes not getting fights with Dokes or Thomas.

 

An argument for avoiding the best contenders around and fighting no hopers and rookies instead.

All your claims about that 15-0 rookie are based on what he achieved after he fought Holmes. Suppose Witherspoon retired after Holmes. Would Holmes beating him still be as highly thought of? But why not? Spoon would still have been the same fighter going in.

Page was Holmes' mandatory before Coetzee even won the title. He won his eliminator against Snipes in May 83 and Holmes hadn't made a mandatory defence since C**ney a year earlier. The Frank and Frazier fights were being lined up for Holmes before Coetzee won the title, Holmes was always going to fight them ahead of Page, no matter who the WBA champ was. As it was, Page ended up fighting Spoon and Coetzee while Holmes fought the 14 fight terror of the division Smith. Suppose Coetzee loses to Dokes. Do you think Holmes stays with the WBC and fights Page? I doubt it. Does he chase Dokes for a unification? Again, I doubt it.

You've made much of the fact that Holmes did attempt to arrange a fight with Coetzee in 84 (even though unifications were apparently impossible anyway). But Coetzee was just one of eight men who held a title while Holmes was champion. Why was no serious effort made to unify with Tate, Weaver, Dokes, Page, Tubbs, Witherspoon and Thomas?

Not according to the Ring rankings. Or the odds makers. No one thought Spoon was going to be a hard fight for Holmes. It was considered such an underwhelming uncompetitive fight they were giving tickets away just to fill the arena. And if Spoon was as good as you say, why didn't Holmes fight him again?

Dare I list the fighters Rodriguez was unbeaten against?

Isn't it odd how Weaver, Dokes, Coetzee, Thomas, Page and Spoon were able to arrange fights with each other, yet supposedly none was ever available for a Holmes fight over a period of several years, even though all of them would have jumped at the chance to face him. Of course if Holmes is busy arranging fights with Lucien Rodriguez and Scott Frank, then they're going to look elsewhere.

Holmes was obliged to fight his mandatory, which he hadn't done for a year, and Page was his mandatory. He'd done much more than Frank, Frazier and Rodriguez to earn a shot at Holmes, so let's face it Page's record could hardly discount him.

Could Holmes beat Dokes and Weaver in 1983? We don't know because he fought Frank, Marvis, Rodriguez and a novice contender with 15 pro fights.

As I said, a great argument for avoiding the best contenders and fighting no hopers instead, if having a spotless title record is all that matters. Samson Dutch Boy Gym has one of those too. If Dokes avoids Coetzee and Weaver and fights a few journeymen and novice heavies instead, he goes unbeaten too.

In 1983, Dokes the Ring's #1 fought the Ring's #2 and #3, while Holmes fought two men ranked #10 by the Ring and two others not ranked at all. The argument here is that Holmes did not meet the best fighters of his era. I'd say 1983 is a pretty glaring example of exactly that.

 

Holmes admits he's "semi-retired."

I.e. No way in hell he's going to fight high risk relatively low reward guys like Page.

He was after the big bucks, obviously

He's bad mouthing the WBC. Hell, they could have stripped him before the Frazier fight.

They gave him plenty of time to agree to fight Page.

$13 million to fight Coetzee outside of South Africa was totally unrealistic. I am not surprised at all the fight well through. He wouldn't even have gotten that much if the fight had happened in South Africa.

Why no effort to fight Thomas for partial unification in 1985?

Probably not enough $ for the high risk involved, and he would had to have dealt with Don King.

 

Holmes still dealt with King when it suited him. The Bonecrusher and Bey fights were King promotions, and King was co-promoter of both Spinks fights.

 

oh. strike the last part of my post then.

 

The idea is that Thomas was not in Holmes league. As of 1985 Holmes would be the odds on winner and most in the know at that time would pick Larry to win.

 

In 1985 career light-heavyweight Mike Spinks was not in "Holmes' league". Those "in the know" said he had no chance. Remind me how that one went.

 

I still maintain that before ****ey, Holmes didn't really put a foot wrong.

The old guard of Shavers, Norton, Spinks and Ali were wiped out. Young lost twice to Ocasio who was also wiped out.

Berbick and Snipes were high ranked contenders and Weaver was the man who defeated Big John Tate. As well as that there were plenty of stay busy fights against lower top ten guys.

Then the huge fight against the heir apparent in ****ey.

Now till that point he really doesn't put a foot wrong legacy wise.

From that moment on there is a series of cherry picked opponents that he began to struggle with because his passion was waning. Culminating in the defeat to Spinks. Even hi comeback against Tyson was just for the money.

Ironically give him some warm up fights and replace Buster with Holmes and I think Larry becomes a two time champion.

Upto and including ****ey he was a great champion and a great fighter. After the big payday he was not the same man and his legacy didn't really improve other than through longevity.

The next guard of top contenders was Smith, Spoon, Thomas and Page. He fought two of them as ill informed cherry picks, but Thomas and Page he ducked. Smith and Spoon he wouldn't rematch. Even Weaver didn't get a rematch.

Shame really.

 

I agree with most of this and used to say it myself but using a timeline of the events, comparing the belt holders after the ****ey fight with the guys Larry did fight there's not much difference and quite a lot of political bull preventing things happening.

Yes Rodriguez, Frazier and Frank were worse than Dokes and Weaver but Larry took those fights as well as Witherspoon the year Dokes was committed to a rematch and the Coetzee fight.

Page comes into the equation only once Coetzee beats Dokes and Larry wants Coetzee not Page. Who could argue with that?

The WBC threatened to Strip him because they did not want unification.

SPORTS PEOPLE
SPORTS PEOPLE; Holmes vs. W.B.C.
Published: November 29, 1983
Larry Holmes made a triumphant return yesterday to his home in Easton, Pa., but he was still sparring with the World Boxing Council over its insistence that he defend his heavyweight title next against Greg Page instead of Gerrie Coetzee . ''I don't want them to try to dictate to me two days after the fight,'' he said, referring to his first-round knockout of Marvis Frazier on Friday in Las Vegas, Nev.
''I'm semi-retired,'' said the 34-year-old Holmes. ''If the Coetzee fight doesn't come, I'll retire in March. If I don't fight Coetzee, I'll quit.'' Holmes was smarting over reports from Bangkok, Thailand, that the W.B.C. president, Jose Sulaiman , had threatened to strip him of the title if he should fight Coetzee before Page. Holmes had agreed to meet the top-ranked Page in a mandatory title defense in February or March but now says that he can earn much more than the $2.55 million offered for that bout by facing Coetzee, the World Boxing Association champion. ''I don't like to be threatened or told what to do,'' said Holmes, who said he was thinking about relinquishing the W.B.C. title and accepting recognition instead from the International Boxing Association."


Yes I think Thomas should have happened in 1985 but Thomas did not help his cause being out of the ring as long as he was and he took the #6 Weaver when Larry took #3 Bey so it's not like Larry really was cherry picking. Larry was more active.


It's documented that both Coetzee and Thomas called Larry "the real champion". Nobody called themselves the real champion.

Only The HBO serries cut red tape allowing heavyweight unifications. It was not all down to Mike Tyson.