Greb and the Heavyweights- Tommy Gibbons

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by dempsey1234, Mar 29, 2016.


Page 11 of 27
  1. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    80,215
    20,903
    Sep 15, 2009
    There's no defence. He would fight Greb victims but not Greb himself.
     
    lufcrazy, Apr 3, 2016
    lufcrazy, Apr 3, 2016
    #151
  2. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,343
    1,526
    Apr 26, 2015
    That flies in the face of the known history. Dempsey once free from Rickard went out on his own to make the fight. He did not need to do this as the champion. In fact this was completely the opposite of what was the protocol traced back to Sullivan. Yet he did so but his efforts all fell through. This was the known history at that time and it was reiterated by Dempsey decades later when he stated that he wanted to fight Wills and tried to make the bout happen. No knowledgable historian, unless they are trying to sell a book, would look over the available known history...very well known history the past 80 plus years and conclude Dempsey was in any way afraid to fight Wills. The legacy of Johnson, the fact that whites ran boxing at that time and the prejudice of that time was what made possibility of the bout occurring very small. This was the thought FROM THAT TIME. It is only revisionist thought that changes the known history.
     
    Perry, Apr 3, 2016
    Perry, Apr 3, 2016
    #152
  3. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,764
    269
    Jun 25, 2012
    Well said, and you are right about the "possibly not", Dempsey seemed to be the type that needed to be taken care of. Throughout his career except maybe at the tail end, he had the worst managers and puppet masters. He didn't seem to make good decisions in this regard, all it seems he wanted to do was fight and get paid. Forget pre-Kearns, where he had managers from hell. Now he had probably HOF puppetmasters in Kearns and Rickard. Very good way to put it, "So there's lots of greys here".
     
    dempsey1234, Apr 3, 2016
    dempsey1234, Apr 3, 2016
    #153
    cross_trainer likes this.
  4. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,764
    269
    Jun 25, 2012
    :good:good:good
     
    dempsey1234, Apr 3, 2016
    dempsey1234, Apr 3, 2016
    #154
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,554
    47,103
    Mar 21, 2007
    No, it flies in the face of your version of history, which is inflexible, one-eyed and absolutely incapable of absorbing the shades of grey that describe the problem. You don't even KNOW half of what happened. Did a conversation like this ever take place?

    JACK: Tex, i'm not fighting anyone but Wills next. People are saying I can't beat him and it's him or i'm packing it in.

    TEX: People don't want that fight here Jack.

    JACK: Then let's take it to Paris. It would be huge money but it'll be big enough. It's him or nobody.

    You have no idea. Neither do I. Such a conversation would change things drastically, I think.

    And "Revisionist" is not the dirty word you make it out to be. Revising history is normal, reasonable and exactly how history evolves and changes. It changes ALL THE TIME, it's not some settled constant like you make it out to be.

    And stop telling people they don't know anything when they disagree with you, that's ridiculous.
     
    McGrain, Apr 3, 2016
    McGrain, Apr 3, 2016
    #155
    cross_trainer likes this.
  6. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,423
    26,895
    Feb 15, 2006
    Yet we accept the same thing in more recent champions, such as Lewis.
     
    janitor, Apr 3, 2016
    janitor, Apr 3, 2016
    #156
  7. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    80,215
    20,903
    Sep 15, 2009
    You might give Lewis a pass if you want but I wouldn't.

    He should have faced Byrd.
     
    lufcrazy, Apr 3, 2016
    lufcrazy, Apr 3, 2016
    #157
  8. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,764
    269
    Jun 25, 2012
    :good:good:good
     
    dempsey1234, Apr 3, 2016
    dempsey1234, Apr 3, 2016
    #158
  9. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,764
    269
    Jun 25, 2012
     
    dempsey1234, Apr 3, 2016
    dempsey1234, Apr 3, 2016
    #159
  10. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,423
    26,895
    Feb 15, 2006
    Fair enough.
     
    janitor, Apr 3, 2016
    janitor, Apr 3, 2016
    #160
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    112,554
    47,103
    Mar 21, 2007
    Well that's how it happens sometimes, sure. But it almost certainly didn't happen that way with Oscar De La Hoya, Shane Mosley, Harry Greb, Mickey Walker, Fritzie Zivic etc etc.

    The answer to the question, "did Dempsey do everything he could to make the Wills fight" is pretty clearly (though not definitively) "no."

    The question does then become, how much of this is a responsibility to the fighter? What is reasonable? That is a grey area.

    This is, as you've said, the business side of the fight game. That's fine. But there is a sporting side, too. The question on the sporting side is, did Dempsey prove himself the best heavy of his generation? I fear the answer is "no" regardless of the greys.
     
    McGrain, Apr 3, 2016
    McGrain, Apr 3, 2016
    #161
    cross_trainer likes this.
  12. dempsey1234

    dempsey1234 Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,764
    269
    Jun 25, 2012
    I hate to say it but I don't think, he put that much thought into the sporting side. We have probably given it more thought then he ever did. As you say, its all grey, in all its shades.
     
    dempsey1234, Apr 3, 2016
    dempsey1234, Apr 3, 2016
    #162
    cross_trainer likes this.
  13. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

    9,343
    1,526
    Apr 26, 2015
    So wrong. Lots of young inexperienced boxing fans on here.

    Fighters fight. Managers and promoters make the fights. It was never so true in those days. The fact that Dempsey did what he did taking matters into his own hands was so out of norm and completely unprecedented as far as I am aware in the hwt division. Yet in your small mind he did not do enough.

    It is very well known and understood what went on here and has been for 80 plus years. Your mindset is completely revisionist and no it's not a good thing.
     
    Perry, Apr 3, 2016
    Perry, Apr 3, 2016
    #163
  14. Nighttrain

    Nighttrain 'BOUT IT 'BOUT IT Full Member

    5,292
    975
    Nov 7, 2011
    I agree, not with the snotty pedantic part, but with the fact that fighters fought and did not control their careers.
     
    Nighttrain, Apr 3, 2016
    Nighttrain, Apr 3, 2016
    #164
    cross_trainer likes this.
  15. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

    58,748
    21,561
    Nov 24, 2005
    Yeah, I agree with that part of Perry's post too.
    It's so obviously true and well-known to be true I have been surprised for years by how many people on this forum deny it.
    It's not even an exoneration of Dempsey, it's just a fact of business. The fighters fight, the managers manage.
    It was true of almost every champion and fighter in history.
     
    Unforgiven, Apr 4, 2016
    Unforgiven, Apr 4, 2016
    #165
    cross_trainer likes this.
Page 11 of 27