Cassius Clay-Henry Cooper 1

Again: Yes, no one is denying this. It's clear as day.

The strange thing is why no one said anything about it at the time if it was a rule violation. Not the commentators when it happened, not Cooper's people afterward, not reporters - no one.

 

How do you know nobody said anything about it at the time?
Certainly by 1966 Cooper's manager was saying it's not allowed in England. How do you know they didn't mention it sooner ?

It was a massive international fight. Clay won, and was probably on his way back home within a day or two. The BBBofC really had no power or desire to overturn the result that had been covered by the international (and American) media. Even if the local rules had been violated such a decision would have been ridiculed as sour g****s and ignored by the world boxing community.

 

So instead the whole extra rest thing was made up? Sounds odd.

And if a clear rule violation happened right before the commentators eyes it just is strange that they said nothing about it.

This doesn't mean I'm 100% certain rules against smelling salts weren't in effect. But I do find it quite surprising that so little apparently was made of it if it was in effect. That's why I'd like a source. That's all.

A credible source will of course make me change my mind.

 

I also have the reel to reel recording detailing the facts you describe from the ringside. The commentator was Simon Smith (Not from the Randy Newman song), assisted by W.Barrington Dalby, doing the inter round summary. Dundee perpetuated the myth to bolster his "wise guy" image, and everyone lapped it up, loving a plucky, unlucky loser! I have lost count, over the years, how often I have debunked this flight of fancy. This, despite the fact that padding can clearly be seen flying out of Clay's glove in the fifth on the film. Commentator on the TV coverage was Harry Carpenter.
'enery's 'ammer, never knocked out anyone world class. How likely is it that he would have achieved this, had the knock down been earlier in the fourth? I would say highly unlikely, considering his recovery in the Frazier fight, when he was down early in the 15th, yet came back to take the remainder of the round!

 

Possibly not though. Ali did get physically and mentally tougher over the years with greater experience and religious faith bolstering his psyche.

This hook is like the one that Frazier landed in the 11th round of the first fight which had Ali in trouble but not down. Clay of 1963 looks like he would have gone over and out from that. Remember Sonny Banks had not long previously knocked him down. He (Clay) didn't seem to have any of the durability that was possibly his stand out attribute in the 70s.

Also what he seemed to lack in this fight, having just watched it, was balance. His right hand leads look like a kid playing baseball. His jab lacks snap. Even his speed looks average. All in all, he looks rubbish. I wouldn't have fancied his chances against Liston in a million years if you are only as good as your last fight. Give Henry tougher skin and he may have done what would now be conceived as the unthinkable.

As it is the way it turned out was best for all parties. Liston, as 'Enery's manager Jim Wicks said was 'too ugly' and would have absolutely wiped the floor with 'Enery'. What would have happened to Clay/Ali? Who knows but if he hadn't gone on to be what he was, Cooper would be remembered as another easy kayo of Sonny Liston and not the nearly man who could have shook up the world. And, with all due respect, there would have been no after dinner circuit or Brut 33 ads for that.

 

If this is true, then you should sell it, you could make a load of money off that.

 

I'm not surprised so little was made of it. Maybe Jim Wicks didn't lodge a complaint, maybe they didn't know smelling salts had been been used until some time later.

The only thing I know is that in May 1966 Jim Wicks was saying "they revived him by breaking vials under his nose. Ammonia or smelling salts may go in America but they don't in England, you know."

When he first made this observation, I don't know.
He seemed to think smelling salts and ammonia were not allowed in England in 1966. He may have been wrong. He may have been right. The ban may have come into effect in the interim. I don't know. But I think he was probably onto something, ie. that they were banned in 1966. And I suspect they were banned 3 years before too.

Again, we haven't identified the origin of the rest period story either, so I can't say WHY it was made up. I think it just grew organic out of some facts that were misunderstood. I think Angelo Dundee was trying to get a delay at the time, but failed. And later on, the Cooper camp distorted, or misinterpreted, or even fooled themselves into thinking Dundee had been successful in getting some sort of delay. That seems the likely sequence of events. It's separate to the smelling salts incident. That happened, and was most likely a rule violation, I believe. These things happen.

 

So now instead of blaming Dundee for cheating, we're moving onto blaming him for telling a tall tale?

Sigh. The hate is too real

 

But admittedly, if you didn't do one he did the other. Correct?

 

I have seen both interviews and read accounts in which Henry Cooper milked the story for all it was worth as well.

 

In front of the ref, and he said nothing? In front of reporters, and they said nothing? What we have is something said by Henry's people - but not right after, as is usual when someone has a complaint, but three years after the fact.

Well, anything can happen, but it does seem strange to me.

 

I never believed the myth of a very long time period elapsing in between the 4th and 5th round. Dundee always stated their was no delay. If you watch the film of the bout you do not see any sign of a delay between those two rounds. A torn glove is mentioned but then the fight goes on without changing gloves.

 

Seems understandable, considering how much stock people around here put in the things that boxers and trainers say.

 

Yes, I think that's the point.
It is strange.
Cornerman breaks the rules and the referee does nothing.

It's strange but believable. I've seen fighters break rules constantly, and referees do nothing. I've seen commissioners do nothing. And we know that anti-doping agencies (whose sole purpose is to detect rule violators) often turn a blind eye too.

I haven't researched the 1963 fight enough to say whether Cooper's camp protested the use of smelling salts at the time.

 

I'm sure I saw George Foreman sniffing smelling salts in the Ron Lyle bout.