AJ already bookie favorite against Fury: Modern day Ali Foreman to come?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by andrewa1, Apr 11, 2016.


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  1. Pugilist_Spec

    Pugilist_Spec Hands Of Stone Full Member

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    No, sorry. Fury is on his way but he still has a lot of questions to answer and Joshua is little more than a prospect despite having a world title. I assume you haven't been following the sport for long because there's been plenty of guys like Joshua who eventually got exposed along the way and were forgotten. The poster above is right, you can combine Joshuas and Furys resume and it still wouldn't come close to matching what Ali did, both in a H2H sense or legacy-wise. Hold your horses.
     
    Pugilist_Spec, Apr 11, 2016
    Pugilist_Spec, Apr 11, 2016
    #16
  2. alspacka

    alspacka Boxing Addict Full Member

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    True, true. I guess I was looking at it through hindsight's lens.

    Tbh the reason I'd be excited to see this fight is that I'm not sure how much either of their title fight wins really told us.

    Was Saturday more evidence of Martin's weakness than Joshua's strength? Not sure, those 1-2's were pretty ****ing textbook though. Then we've recent evidence of Fury's ability to deal with textbook, but can't really be certain how reliable it is.

    Exciting times :bbb
     
    alspacka, Apr 11, 2016
    alspacka, Apr 11, 2016
    #17
  3. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Except the only obvious thing about what you said is how wrong you are. Fury is demonstrably, (much) larger, (much) faster, and with a (much) higher punch volume (and thus likely endurance). You're entitled to your opinion about who would win between the two, but unequivocally stating that AJ is much more talented etc is just absurd.
     
    andrewa1, Apr 11, 2016
    andrewa1, Apr 11, 2016
    #18
  4. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Let's revisit this in a year.
     
    mr. magoo, Apr 11, 2016
    mr. magoo, Apr 11, 2016
    #19
  5. Antsu

    Antsu Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The greatest win on heavyweights in last 10 years.

    Dominated man who has shutdown every fighter for last 11 years.
     
    Antsu, Apr 11, 2016
    Antsu, Apr 11, 2016
    #20
  6. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Stupid comment, PS. You're usually smarter than that, and I've probably followed the sport longer or a comparable time than you.

    The table is set very well for one or both to become ATG's. In fact, arguably no dominant ATG HW has ever beat a dominant ATG HW while they were champ. If you define dominant as having 4 or more winning title defenses, its never happened before. Fury has a golden opportunity to have unprecedented success in the division. Or AJ, if he beats Fury (who, if Fury beats Wlad again, and doesn't drop more than a couple other fights, will have a better resume than Rid**** Bowe) and goes on to dominate for awhile. Or both, under various permutations. The point is, its stupid to just assume that the past era's cannot be approached, and that these era's must be inferior.

    As far as H2H, again, you are usually smarter than that. You seem to acknowledge that H2H progress has been made over the years. Ask yourself why you seem to draw the line and apply it to everyone pre Ali but not Ali. It's not based on reasoned consideration. He's less well suited to the modern game than Louis.
     
    andrewa1, Apr 11, 2016
    andrewa1, Apr 11, 2016
    #21
  7. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Fair enough.

    Might need a couple years though.

    And if AJ beats Fury, then I'd definitely say he's more talented, because presumably his power will be more decisive than the qualities Fury has going for him.

    But if Fury wins its not going to be because Joshua "failed to realize" his potential, it will just be because Fury is better.
     
    andrewa1, Apr 11, 2016
    andrewa1, Apr 11, 2016
    #22
  8. ki_ote

    ki_ote Well-Known Member Full Member

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    If Fury beats Wlad and proceeds to fight once a year, he better fight AJ first. If not, it will just make it tougher to beat AJ when that time comes.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G928A using Tapatalk
     
    ki_ote, Apr 11, 2016
    ki_ote, Apr 11, 2016
    #23
  9. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    :good
     
    andrewa1, Apr 11, 2016
    andrewa1, Apr 11, 2016
    #24
  10. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Fury would school AJ.
    I hope the AJ hype and public perception keeps going and Fury becomes a huge underdog. It will make Fury even greater, and allow us to make a lot of money betting on him. :good
    I've become a Fury believer.
     
    Unforgiven, Apr 11, 2016
    Unforgiven, Apr 11, 2016
    #25
  11. UnleashtheFURY

    UnleashtheFURY D'oh! Full Member

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    Fury still has Wlad to worry about.....
     
    UnleashtheFURY, Apr 11, 2016
    UnleashtheFURY, Apr 11, 2016
    #26
  12. RememberingC.S.

    RememberingC.S. Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Which is what can be said of any Mayweather fight. To the eyes of the uneducated
     
    RememberingC.S., Apr 11, 2016
    RememberingC.S., Apr 11, 2016
    #27
  13. Pugilist_Spec

    Pugilist_Spec Hands Of Stone Full Member

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    You seem to have this weird stance that if Joshua/Fury/Wilder randomly start beating each other that all of them are going to go down as ATGs and I've no idea why. Nobody was calling Baer, Carnera, Sharkey and Schmeling ATGs because they beat each other up. Or the bunch of WBA titlists that switched titles in the 80s. The resume of Ali and his contemporaries is so deep it goes far beyond them just beating each other. Ali was already an ATG in the 60s when he was exiled and sported an unbeaten record with 10 straight defenses...what he did in the 70s is just extra. Foreman is really the only guy of that era to be branded as great off single wins (Frazier, Norton), but even then we probably wouldn't be talking about him as a top 10 heavy if he hadn't made that comeback, and I often acknowledge his flaws and lack of a variety of styles on his resume.

    I'm not saying these guys COULDN'T become great. But saying that Joshua is on his way to becoming a top 10-15 all time heavy is ridiculous. The guy is a complete dark horse at the moment. He could get chinned in his next fight and become an afterthought. He could become a Frank Bruno-type perennial contender whose stamina and chin always betrays him at the top level. It's too soon to call.

    Wilder is already suffering from what I call the David Tua syndrome...ie needing to come from behind and score dramatic knockout wins over weak opponents. I can absolutely assure you that if he needed to KO Szpilka to beat him he isn't going anywhere...

    I don't believe in a never-ending progress of the sport from era to era, I look at styles, how a fighter matches up with another one and generally am completely impartial to "ATG status" in head to head match-ups, which is why I've made some odd picks in the past like Brewster over Marciano/Dempsey or Mercer over Foreman, but I rarely favour the modern fighter outright unless we're talking about fossils like Jeffries or Johnson, I think that a guy like Tony Tubbs would give Vitali Klitschko fits, or that Gerry ****ey could whack out Rid**** Bowe, and that Ali, as one of the most amazing athletic phenoms in the history of sports in general could compete with just about everyone at his best and win most of the time.
     
    Pugilist_Spec, Apr 11, 2016
    Pugilist_Spec, Apr 11, 2016
    #28
  14. TheVrominator

    TheVrominator Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Wow, so we're comparing Joshua to Foreman now. :rofl



    Yeah, it'd be like Ali-Foreman..... in a really sad, short bus, window licking, safety helmet kind of way.
     
    TheVrominator, Apr 11, 2016
    TheVrominator, Apr 11, 2016
    #29
  15. andrewa1

    andrewa1 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Except that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying they have a trajectory that makes that possible. If Wilder beats Povetkin, the best non K of the late K era, and they all keep beating everyone else, then they will have top resumes. Not at the Ali Foreman level, I said that from the beginning. Maybe not even at the Lewis Holyfield, Bowe Tyson level. But above basically any other era. And it is possible that scenarios could happen that allow them to rival them after all, a lot can happen in boxing. And, the person who emerges as the dominant champ from that group, if one does emerge, will have a great claim as a top 10 ATG. 'm not sure why you have such a tough time following along with that.

    Regarding Wilder and Spilzka, look you can pick at any HW in history and find events like that. Doug Jones was Spilzka level, and many thought Ali lost that fight.
     
    andrewa1, Apr 11, 2016
    andrewa1, Apr 11, 2016
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