Top 10 HW fighters from 1905-1915

Edited for misunderstanding Thread title.

 

Off the top of my head, to get a discussion going, so clearly there will be some big mistakes and ommissions but,

1. Jack Johnson
2. Sam Langford
3. Jess Willard
4. Tommy Burns
5. Harry Wills
6. Marvin Hart
7. Sam McVey
8. Joe Jeanette
9. Jim Flynn
10. Luther McCarthy

 

I more or less agree with this list, apart from your #9 and #10.

Denver Ed Martin, Gunboat Smith, and Sandy Ferguson would be better picks.

 

How many of the top talents fought each other in their prime or near prime during this timeline?

You could say Hart was the best in 1905-1906, then Burns in 1907-1908, then Johnson from 1909-1914, then Willard. So we have 4 guys in a decade on top.

The best fights from 1909-1913 were Johnson vs. Langford, McVey, or Jeanette, and we never saw them.

Johnson did fight an exhibition match vs. Gunboat Smith in 1909 and was clocked. Smith also has a win over Langford, Willard and Moran and for a while was a hot fighter. It's plausible he's underrated.

 

Apart from one win over a novice McVey what did Martin accomplish in that timescale? Ferguson too is shy of creditable wins. Smith had a purple patch of 15 months then fizzled out.
Wills is too high.

 

My argument would be that they were stronger contenders than Flynn or McCarthy.

 

Flynn beat
Ross
Langford
Morris
Gardner
Squires
Barry
Kaufman

 

From 1906 Johnson was the standout heavyweight, it was just a question of getting Burns into a ring. That is an 8 years domination,in a 10 year period.

 

this made me check what year joe choynski retired....it would have been very late in his career but he was tops...but its a useless post as he retired in 04.

 

Not quite an answer to the question, but to add some fuel... Alfred Reed Cratty, who wrote as Jim Jab, was writing sports in Pittsburgh as far back as 1883, possibly even earlier.

1920-12-06 The Pittsburg Press (page 20)
JIM JAB PICKS TWENTY BEST IN RING SPORT
--------
By Jim Jab.

Autumn's tradition of picking all-American gridiron squads, has extended to other rugged recreations. Fistiana couldn't escape the racket. A down easterner delved in the game, finally emerging with a "Twenty Best." A score of this clan was credited to yesteryear and an equal number to modern mixing. The guesser awards Dempsey with being the "boss ever," puts Fitz seconds, Jeffries third, J. A. Johnson fourth, Sullivan fifth. If the prophet wanted to get a "rise" out of the old-timers he couldn't have planned better. Chances are that his estimate was formed mostly on hear-talk, that is the so-called symposium was culled on somebody else's say so. The writer begs leave to dissent with the selections. By way of qualification how's the following? Have "lamped" Sully in his prime; watched him in hostile settos, peeked at Peter Jackson going his best; eyed Jim Jeffries slinging hard leather, scanned Dempsey hitting his finest, gazed at Peter Maher, Frank Slavin, Ruby Fitz, J. Willard, F. Fulton, Jim Corbett; looked over glove stars for four decades.

In the writer's mind, no heavyweight in American ring history was better than Jim Jeffries, California giant. Stalwart, compact, cool and calculating, this magnificent athlete was a marvelous hitter, cruel only when cruelty was needed. The view is ventured that the annals of the mit pastime do not show Jeffries' peer. Under Tommy Ryan's tutelage Jeffries became clever to the echo. Withal this enchantment of science, there came no slackening in swatting prowess. Usually when a natural battler is taught fancy flings of fistic art he suffers in striking skill. Dempsey is classy, Sullivan was great, Fitzsimmons marvelous, Jackson way up, Johnson artful and crafty, Slavin game and gritty, Ruhlin excellent, a wonder in elbow work. In their day and generation these warriors blazed the trail with brilliant bouts. Of course they didn't score brackets in all frays. However, they were capable clashers.

EASTERN SAGE'S CHOICES.

To aid the argument let us reprint the eastern sage's ranking roster. Here goes. The up-to-date command: Jack Dempsey, No. 1; Wills, 2; Willard, 3; McVey, 4; Fulton, 5; Langford, 6; Norfolk, 7; Brennan, 8; Carpentier, 9; Moran, 10; Tate, 11; Ropper, 12; Martin, 13; Tunney, 14; Reich, 15; Weinert, 16; Madden, 17; Jim Coffey, 18; Beckett, 19; Tom Cowler, 20.

The all-time list: No. 1, Dempsey; No. 2, Fitzsimmons; No. 3, Jeffries; No. 4, Jack Johnson; No. 5, Sullivan; No. 6, Peter Jackson; No. 7, Corbett; No. 8, McCoy; No. 9, Langford; No. 10, Peter Maher; No. 12, Sharkey; No. 13, Gus Ruhlin; No. 14, Joe Choynski; No. 15, Joe Jeannette; No. 16, Luther McCarthy; No. 17, Jess Willard; No. 18, Jack Dillon; No. 19, Sam McVey; No. 20, Tommy Burns.

Now for THE PRESS revise--Today's chieftains: No. 1, Jack Dempsey; No. 2, Kid Norfolk; No. 3, Fred Fulton; No. 4, Jess Willard; No. 5, Harry Wills; No. 6, Jack Johnson; No. 7, Bill Brennan; No. 8, Sam Langford; No. 9, Charley Weinert; No. 10, Sam McVey; No. 11, Frank Moran; No. 12, Tom Gibbons; No. 13, Mike O'Dowd; No. 15, Gene Tunney; No. 16, Bill Miske; No. 17, Bob Martin; No. 18, Georges Carpentier; No. 19, Jack Thompson; No. 20, Al Reich.

Note the All American team of 40 years plus: No. 1, James J. Jeffries; No. 2, John L. Sullivan; No. 3, J. Art Johnson; No. 4, Jack Dempsey; No. 5, Bob Fitzsimmons; No. 6, Peter Jackson; No. 7, Jess Willard; No. 8, Frank Paddy Slavin; No. 9, Fred Fulton; No. 10, Gus Ruhlin; No. 11, Peter Maher; No. 12, Tom Sharkey; No. 13, Sam Langford; No. 14, Luther McCarthy; No. 15, Jim Corbett; No. 16, Charley Mitchell; No. 17, Joe Choynski; No. 18, Joe Goddard; No. 19, Sam McVey; No. 20, Joe Jeannette.

Guess this estimate will arouse favor and fuss. Jake Kilrain could be included in the also-rans. Kilrain was better than the average. How about Kid McCoy, bugs may ask? The Kid was some wonder, that's true, but more out of the arena than in it. At that he had fist talent undeniable. Jack Dillon thrived in the arena. No doubt Dillon could have gone higher had he been so minded. He got the change just the same.

 

That's a good effort but I think Joe Jeanette ranked far too low there, Harry Wills was just coming to prime late in this timeline (I think) and Jeanette was far better than say Marvin Hart and he would beat Tommy Burns I think... I have yet to go do any checking yet so this is off the top of my head but Jeanette is one of the greats there can be no doubt about that. And he should be raked ahead of McVey certainly.

 

Plausible but to me the man was not much of a fighter, he was unskilled but had a gigantic punch but so often never landed it in a fight... I think he always had a punchers chance but only if opponents got careless... said to have been very slow. I also think but have not checked that he lasted just one round against the light hitting Harry Greb so if that was legit Smith had a glass jaw with few rivals.

 

Did we see ;
Sullivan V Jackson,Godfrey?
Corbett [as champion]v Jackson?
Fitzsimmons v Jackson?
Jeffries [as champion] v Johnson,Martin,McVey?
Dempsey v Wills,Greb?
Tunney v Sharkey?
Braddock v Schmeling?
Louis v Franklin,Ray?
Patterson v[as champion]Machen,Folley,Terrell?
Holmes v Page,Coetzee,Thomas?
Bowe v Lewis?
Spinks v Thomas,Witherspoon?
Wilder against Anyone?

In1909 Jack Johnson was earning $3,500 a week in a 40 week theatrical tour.
Promoter Hugh D McIntosh offered Johnson a 3 fight deal over one year,the opponents were to be Langford,Burns ,and Lang,and the prize was $ 75,000.
Johnson turned him down ,he was making excellent money without having to train at all.
Johnson was asked if he would defend aginst Langford?
Johnson said if Langford could defeat Kaufman he would take his challenge seriously but that he wanted a $20,000 sidebet because as he told Langford ," two coloured fighters won't draw." Langford priced himself out of a Kaufman fight by asking too much money.
On Sep5th 1910 Kaufman decisioned Bill Lang.

The next day170lbs Langford decisioned 190/200lbs Joe Jeannette.
Stanley Ketchel ,who had fought both Johnson and Langford was asked about Langford's chances with the champion he said,"I believe he is overated,he hasn't got the ghost of a show with Johnson,I believe I could whip the Boston fighter easier than I could Burns",Stan said Burns would be the harder fight.
Paris promoter and Jeannette's manager Dan McKetrick offered Johnson $20,000 to fight Jeannette in a finish fight. Johnson wanted more and said his theatrical engagements had another 30 weeks to run.
In November 1910 ,Johnson's manager offered Jeannette a title fight over 20rds if they could come up with a $25,000 guarantee for Johnson.
During that same period Joe Woodman, Langford's manager confirmed that Hugh McIntosh had only offered Johnson $15,000 plus expenses to fight Langford,plus he required Johnson to post the sme amount as a performance guarantee.Woodman posted a letter in Boston quoting McIntosh to that effect.
The highest offer Johnson received,from either French,British or Australian promoters to fight either Langford or Jeannette was $20,000."No American promoter has shown a desire to secure such a match". Source Jack Johnson Part 2 The Reign by Adam Pollack page 540. Highly recommended!
Jan10th 1911 Langford beat the cr*p out of Joe Jeannette, winning every round after flooring him in the first.
On Feb11th 1911 Langford beat Bill Lang,
Johnson said he was willing to defend against Langford but wanted a $30,000 guarantee McIntosh had offered $30,00 but to be split 60/40.

Johnson made the following comment," I do not understand McIntosh.He gave Tommy Burns£6000,or $30,000 to box me in Australia,and I who won the fight received $5000.
I informed McIntosh some time ago that I would require as much as Burns received if I was wanted to defend my championship.
Surely if he can afford to give Burns $30,000 in Sydney ,he can offer me an equal amount to box in a city like Paris or London?"

In March 1911 John L Sullivan said,"Sam Langford is too small to ever expect to cope successfully with a man ofJack Johnson's size and skill.No little man is evergoing to to whip a big man,,at least a big man of Johnsons size and skill".
On April1st in Paris, Langford and Sam McVey went to a 20rds draw the purse was $10,000.
McIntosh offered Johnson $25,000 to defend against either Kaufman or Langford ,Johnson replied he wanted $30,000, the same as Burns had received defending against himself.

JimFlynn re-established himself as a challenger by beating Al Kaufman and Carl Morris and Johnson defended against him receiving $31,000.
Johnson countless times repeated that he would defend his title aginst any challenger who could come up with his asking price of $30,000. This is easily verified.