Where does Jack Johnson rank as a HW ATG

Many of his best wins happened when the other guy was very green or old. People just do not research the dates, times, and weights. Allow me to illustrate.

Langford, just 20 and 156 pounds

McVey, a teenager in two fights, just 20 for the third match.

Jeannette, a raw novice with a losing record going into some fights

Jeffries, old, had to lose 80 pounds to get in shape, did not fight in the past six years.

Won his title from a man who stood 5'7" tall, 168 pounds ( Burns )

More data: KO'd by a super middleweight ( Choynski ), dropped by another in a title fight ( Ketchel ) and outboxed according to some primary sources in a title fight by a third ( O'Brien ).

Holds a dubious draw in a title match vs. Journeyman Jim Battling Johnson.

**Let's pause for a moment, it any of the above happened to a heavyweight champion today, he's be laughed at.**

KO'd by the best he fought in Willard.

As champion, he avoided the best three contenders for years in McVey, Langford and Jeannette from 1909-1914 when they were in their primes.

As Jeannette aptly put it " When Jack became the champion he forgot his old friends and drew the color line against his own people. "

Didn't face the best white boxer of the times in GunBoat Smith, but Smith did TKO Johnson in an exhibition match in his prime in 1909.

The films are not very impressive. Johnson had fast hands and good reflexes, but his stance is terrible, and his defense relied heavily on clinching, and uppercut the other guy.

Johnson is famous for being the first black American champion ( Peter Jackson, who was also black was the British Empire Champion before Johnson won his title ). If Johnson said the 4th black champion, history would not be as kind to him.

In a head to head sense, he's not even top 20. From a historical legacy perspective, he rates higher, but it's only because he was the 1st. The 1st of anything in history is always going to rate highly.

 

^ good post by Mendoza. A good read. Also, I didn't realise that he was only 6 foot tall. Povetkin is knocked for being too small for HW nowadays ... what would they say about Johnson? Legacywise though, he has the names where they count I guess.

 

Well, I have been a student of the game 20+ years in terms of research, film study, and know something about boxing in and out of the ring. Thanks.

Johnson was a shade over 6 feet tall and had a 74" reach. He was not a puncher. He was more of an inside fighter than outside fighter, and would be in over his head vs a taller jabber with better power.

One major plus for him is he had top reflexes and punch anticipation. This allowed him to escape damage, especially from less skilled smaller men. A decent counter puncher too.

One thing about him is Johnson was very smart in terms of bending the rules and using them to neutralize his opponent. At times, he fouled by going low or hitting on the break. Other times he'd pinch his opponents biceps, but he escaped DQ's. Jack was a master of learning on smaller men and wearing them down.

On the downside, he also quit in multiple fights, lost a very key match to Marvin Hart in 1905, with the winner getting a chance to face Jeffries.

Jeffries said he'd face Hart if there was demand for it. There was not. The public saw it as a mismatch.

 

Bumped as I want to see the Andrewa1's reply.

 

Firmly in between Nichols and Molina

 

Respectively

 

Over the hill Jack Johnson handled prime giant Jess Willard for 20 rounds. He can fight big guys.

I think he's definitely top 10. He had the pacing, distance, and balance of Mayweather, but could also become aggressive and hard hitting.

 

Which wins do you think undervalue? As Champion Burns fought some real weak competition.

Burns is likely Johnson's best pure win.

In a Burns book it states he was at a lower than normal weight and was fighting something of a Jaundice, which was confirmed by those at ringside as Burns skin had a yellowish hue to it.

A champion is partly defined by who he beat and not avoiding the best. Here Johnson rates low

 

With champions pre-dating Louis, there's always this one thing that diminishes their legacy severely, the color line.

People virtually brush it off nowadays but it's insane that a fighter could get away with ducking a whole race...when modern fighters like Canelo get crucified for ducking merely one.

Johnson beat a severely undersized Langford and very green versions of McVea and Jeanette during his colored title run but wanted no part of these men when they were bigger/more seasoned during his championship reign.

From 06-11 Langford went on an incredible streak with over 50 wins and only one NWS decision loss against better men than Johnson himself was beating at the time...and he was still ignored.

Avoiding challengers this significant has to count for something.

 

Good post

 

Jeffries wanted no part of Johnson whatsoever and ran off to a farm to avoid him.

He only eventually fought him due to non stop public demand.

Amazing how you never mention this , isn't it?

 

Johnson had no fear of any of the guys he had already beaten. He lacked experience when he fought them and was learning on a fight to fight basis so it was an even playing field.

Drawing the color line was a symbolic move for Johnson more than anything else. Exercising the liberties that came with the real White HW championship

 

That's not entirely true. While I don't believe Jeffries would of crossed the color line and fought Johnson it doesn't change the fact that Johnson blew his chance with his poor performance against Marvin Hart. He lost to Hart putting in a poor performance and Jeffries decided to retire because Hart was no threat