Tua vs. Jeffries

We have the usual problem with a Jeffries match up.

First you have to define Jeffries.

That aside we would be justified in favouring Jeffries based on what we know, which is admittedly leaves a lot of gaps.

 

How would you break down Jeffries' style? I imagine a physically imposing grinder for his time?

 

That is a good way of describing him.

He fought out of a crouch and used a sustained body attack. He rarely threw a punch to the head, unless he was going for the finish. In this sense he was the original body snatcher. He is sometimes describes as a converted southpaw, but he was actually ambidextrous, and could write equally well with both hands.

His style evolved over time, because he was comparatively inexperienced when he won the title. In his early fights he let his opponents come to him, and counterpunched them using his physical advantages, perhaps a bit like Sam Peter in the Toney fights. Later in his title reign he became more aggressive and came after his opponents more.

Towards the end of his career, some people were saying that he had developed into one of the better technicians in the division.

 

Jeffries was a back foot body puncher who relied on his superior athleticism.

Perhaps his two most famous fights were the rematch with Fitz and Johnson, both of these he played the part of the slugger. Against Corbett when he was unable to outbox him he also reverted to slugging as well in an attempt to wear him down.

He was multi dimensional from what I've read and was able to change style depending upon the success he had against his opponent.

The fights I've seen of him show him to be rudimentary and very limited with his punch variety. So there's some disparity between what is written and what is seen.

Is the footage reliable enough to draw conclusions that I can stand by? I'm honestly not sure.

To be totally honest, Tua could very easily be out boxed here and severely softened up by the body hooks he'd be shipping.

I think the pick here is determined by the nature of the poster. If you believe in the disparity between eras you would have to favour Tua by ko
If you are willing to give the writeups benefit of the doubt you would have to pick Jeffries by points.

I'm honestly not sure how to go here. I hate making picks on limited footage but we are able to watch a prime Jeffries fight. And the thought of the man I've seen holding Tua off him for 15 rounds isn't something I can buy into.

I've got only two choices.

1) believe the footage and pick Tua by ko.
2) abstain from voting due to lack of footage.

 

You are half right.

He used this style early in his career, and early in his title reign, but he later became more offensively orientated.

He was very much using a seek and destroy style in his later title fights.

He seems to have reverted to his earlier style in the Johnson fight interestingly.

 

The third would be to look at who was getting results in the real physical universe.

You have a fighter who looks impressive against weak opposition, on state of the art film, who has a consistent track record of coming up short in important fights.

You have a fighter who looks questionable, on stone age era film, who has a consistent track record of pulling the win out of the bag, against elite opposition.

That should be enough to favour Jeffries, having made it clear that your prediction depends upon a few assumptions.

 

I don't think it is enough.

Someone with the described style of Jeffres should have success against Tua.

But whether Jeffries himself can do the job is questionable indeed.

 

Tua loses to every world class fighter he ever meets, while Jeffries retires undefeated.

Then you say that it is a question of whether Jeffries himself can do the job??????

The burden of proof is all on Tua, why don’t you get that!!!

 

I have watched the Jeffries Rhulin bout many times. I am impressed with what I see and in this fight he was the seek and destroy version. If you look close watch for the very short left hook to the body. It's so short it looks as if Jeffries is grabbing at his opponents waist. He also doubles and triples up on that hook. What throws many off is the staccato movements on this very ancient film. One has to look beyond this as no human being moved in that fashion.

 

Because in a fight between two men, paper means little imo.

Jeffries had a great career. As a champ he's up there with Louis, Ali, Lewis, Tyson and Rocky for me. He did retire too early so missed out on the best coloured contenders but I can look past that.

We are comparing too styles here, a close range slugger and a long range body snatcher.

Tua has been beaten by Ike up close and by Byrd and Lewis at range. So a man of Jeffries style and ratings should be able to pull the trick.

But the man we see on film doesn't look like someone you would favour to beat Tua.

And I disagree with your first sentence. He beat Ruiz, Rahman, Moorer, Maskaev and Oquendo.

 

Hopefully at some point an expert will remaster all this footage.

 

Tua was outboxed by a slow Oleg MAskeav until Maskeav gassed late.

Rahman who wasn't terrible skilled had an easy time until Tua nailed him after the bell.

Jeffries was a better athlete than either man and had way more durability and stamina. In addition, Jeffries had a slip and duck type of defense to avoid hooks

In other fights, Tua punked out vs Byrd and Lewis.

I'd pick Jeffries via UD, or in 15 round or longer fight via TKO.

 

This guy knows what he's talking about. " The Fight Film Collector "


Fortunately, there is one more Jeffries fight film that exists today. In 1901 the Edison Company, who had previously filmed Jim Corbett in a staged studio match in 1894, wanted a bigger stake in the fight film business. Traveling from New Jersey to San Francisco, the Edison crew set out to film Jeffries defending against contender Gus Ruhlin in San Francisco on November 15. The fight is among the most obscure heavyweight title bouts in boxing history, but there was great anticipation at the time. Jeffries was immensely popular and Ruhlin was considered a real challenge. Both Jeffries and Ruhlin were first filmed in training as they prepared for the match.

The Fight

As for the fight itself, the contest failed to deliver the excitement that Jeffries was known for. To make matters worse, Ruhlin quit after only five rounds. There were calls of a fake, but Jeffries later wrote in a biography published in The Pittsburgh Press, “Ruhlin was a good fighter…who just couldn’t get up for the next round. My heavy body punches had nearly broken him in two.”

Cameras rolled throughout the entire fight, but it was another production failure. The exposure was poor, and the inexperienced director positioned the camera much too far from the ring. The film had a limited release, but with the fight being a bust, the movie was promoted as a “sparring session” to lower audience expectations.

The Restoration

The surviving footage of the Jeffries-Ruhlin fight is taken from Muteoscope cards (vintage hand-cranked flip card viewers) and not directly from the film negatives. This is likely the only reason the film survived. The image is cloudy and poor. I used several restoration treatments to improve the film. Nearly every frame is either washed out or very dark, which results in the flashing effect, but I did adjust the exposure of several sections. The sharpening tool helped restore some detail, though resulting in some pixilation. Finally, the video stabilizer softened the frame jitter and during key exchanges, I also zoomed in on the fighters, despite the poor quality, to bring the action a little closer. The technology didn’t perform any miracles here, but this humble restoration gives us a better look at Jeffries than the original copy.

The Film

As the film starts, there are two very brief clips including the end of a round and the rest period as cornermen fan the boxers with towels. Jeffries is wearing dark trunks, and he stands in front of his stool in the left corner, oddly bending over. Only a single full round of the fight is shown, and it’s unclear if it is round three or four since Ruhlin was knocked down in both. We see Ruhlin score a good right to the body early in the round, but it’s all Jeffries thereafter, primarily using his left hook. As witnesses testified, Ruhlin was outclassed from the start and Jeffries spent much of the fight in pursuit. But there are some vivid moments of the champion during the exchanges that show what a dangerous fighter he was; including his speed, power and ability to cut off the ring. Jeffries is often likened to Rocky Marciano, but in watching him against Gus Ruhlin, his rigid stance, ever stalking and “slam-bang” attacks compare more to Gene Fullmer. In any case, the Jim Jeffries in this film is not the same man who lumbered after Jack Johnson nine years later.

The one round of action. Jeffries vs Ruhlin.

[url]http://wikibit.me/video/sNJpppvKfSQ[/url]

Training film of Jeffries, 1901

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Rahman was world class when Tua beat him.

All the other fighters that you list were either men who would be world class in the future, or men who had been world class in the past.