Is Foreman Frazier the greatest win of all time?

The term SuperFight has been around for a while. It was used in 1978 with Ali-Spinks II, and I'm sure it was likely used before that.

This link leads to an eBay auction for an Ali-Spinks 'SuperFight' magazine. (I'd just post the pic but can't figure out how )

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUPER-FIGHT-1978-ALI-Vs-SPINKS-II-Official-TV-SPORTS-PROGRAM-/281651826092

 

Saddler Pep 1 is probably the greatest win ever

Pacquiao Barrera 1 is the greatest win of the modern era(Foreman Frazier is #2)

 

Juan Marquez's knock out win over Manny Pacquiao, after the 3 controversial decisions, is for me, one of the greatest performances at top level.

 

I just remember being 10 years old and reading the paper up until the fight. Foreman really had not fought anyone, Frazier thought his speed would give him the advantage. Then hearing the the result, it was such a shock. Then the replay on Wide World of Sports, and hearing Cosell going "Down goes Frazier!, down goes Frazier!" - unreal. Then after seeing Norton get crushed, it was like who has a chance against Foreman. Frankly I was a little concerned about Ali, but he pulled it off.

I think Joe could take a good punch but not Foreman's. Even at Joe's prime, Foreman would have been a problem.

 

What do you classify as modern era? To me Pacquiao Barrera 1 is the best win since at least Hagler Hearns. Because Pacquiao won every round except the first with shocking ease. If you think it's better than that you have to go back to Foreman Frazier 1 to find a better win.

The thing about Foreman Frazier and Pacquiao Barrera is the ease at which they demolished their opponents. Nobody saw it coming. It seemed so easy and it was so vicious and magnificent.

 

Schmeling over Louis is the greatest win of all time. Best game plan and execution of all time. Louis was at his peak and so much better than Schmeling, but it didn't matter Schmeling found a way, incredible

 

Hey you, glad to see you still posting.

Not sure i could agree Joe was peak, he'd only been pro a couple of years and this loss was one of the valuable lessons he still had to learn in order to become the machine he came to be.

It's heavily documented Max was thought to be past it and apparently Joe trained accordingly whilst Max trained superbly and came in with a huge point to prove.

Totally agree with you that it was an incredible win however.

 

Destroying the champ in less than a round is great for me.

 

Joe himself said his peak was Max Baer, and it was that version of Louis Schmeling had prepared for in their first bout. Granted he was undertrained and dehydrated due to his time on the golf links, but still, "I thought I was hot $h!t" after Max Baer set him up for a developmentally necessary lesson in defeat. (How necessary a loss? No contender with an unblemished record had ever challenged for the title in the Queensberry era, echoing Billy's Conn's axiom that "When a fighter's undefeated, there's something wrong." I'll go so far as to say Braddock successfully defends the HW championship against the undefeated Bomber of Schmeling I. Only Marciano could become the first challenger with an unblemished record to attempt winning that title.)

What about Foreman-Frazier I? Frazier-Daniels and Frazier-Stander are essential viewing here. Never mind the opponents, look at Smoke. His return from the FOTC was a hurricane, where he actually had Terry down before the first round was out, completely steamrolling him. With Stander, he applied movement against a rock chinned forward advance to chop Ron up.

His weight was up from the FOTC, and they were recognized as mismatches going in, but he was still hustling, starting fast with Daniels as he had Machen and Ziggy, and outmaneuvering Stander as he had Chuvalo. Neither Ron or Terry had provided him that big tall target he preferred though. The chief indicator the chip was off his shoulder really came during the post fight interviews. For Foreman, he was 29-0-0, and barely 29 years old, younger than when Marciano dethroned JJW, younger than when Bob Foster dethroned Tiger.

George hadn't been extended since Peralta II. His penultimate bout before challenging Frazier was Ted Gullick, who many thought had actually taken the opening round in slowing backing Foreman up and keeping it in mid ring before the power in George's hook put Ted down for the count 2:30 into round two. Like Frazier-Daniels and Frazier-Stander, Foreman-Gullick has been on youtube, and with no foreknowledge of what was about to happen in Jamaica, there's no indication of what's about to transpire.

Maybe Joe could have survived and adapted after getting stunned and floored by George as he did in Bonavena I, but Frazier didn't clear his head as quickly in his introduction to Ringo as he would have needed to with the much harder hitting Foreman. George was rightly not about to let him off the hook. Joe was too buzzed to adapt with movement and his brand of survival tactics as he did early with Stander or after getting up in Bonavena I until his head cleared.

Was it the greatest win of all time, or even the biggest upset? No, but it can certainly be in the conversation because of the way Foreman blew him away.

Liston-Patterson's been mentioned, but as far as I'm concerned that ship sailed with Ingo-Patterson I. Floyd was recognized as an extremely vulnerable champion even before Ingo challenged him, so much so that Marciano was contemplating a comeback. (Good thing Rocky didn't. He'd let himself completely go and had a bad back for years. He proved he could still train himself down for Wororner's staged bout with Ali in 1969, but getting into a semblance of acceptable physical appearance was still no picnic for him.)

Toledo can be in the mix, not because of who won, but the sensational way Dempsey did it. Watching Willard-Moran, Willard-Floyd Johnson and Firpo-Willard, an opening round beating of Jess like that seems incomprehensible. Jess was no Carnera or Patterson when it came to withstanding a punch or sustained punishment. He had serious durability.

 

This is an excelent point. There was no indication of what was going to transpire at all watching Foreman against Gullick before the Frazier fight. Ted Gullick was landing punches flush on big George. There is no wonder-going off this fight- that Frazier was installed as the overwhelming favourite to beat George.

It is important to watch these fights in order. Keep in mind Frazier beating Ali then Watch Foreman v Gullick first then watch Foreman v Frazier. There is absolutely nothing that could possibly predict what George was able to do against Frazier.

Frazier was quite possibly Foremans easiest win ever. It was target practice. George had a plan. He was razor sharp and it totally paid off for him.

I've studied this many times and in my opinion Frazier had lost his entire long range game after the Ali fight. He was not landing on the way in anymore and that is crucial against a big puncher. Being unable to meet George with power on the way in meant George could draw a line in the canvas. He simply hit at Joe as he walked up to the line. Push him back beyond the line and hit him again. It's exactly what Foreman did.

And this could not happen in 1971.

George knew Joe could not reach him unless he was snuggled up onto to him. Yet in 1971, using angles, Frazier could time Ali at any range.

 

It also has a lot to do with styles. Swarmers have the advantage over boxers. But are vulnerable to punchers.

 

Everybody is vulnerable to punchers.

The categorizing of fighters into groups of Boxers, punchers and swarmers in order to establish "style advantage" totally over simplifies things way too much. It's far too sweeping.

Where a fighter is at the time two guys meet has a lot to do with things too.

If it were simply the case of "style advantage" why did Foreman find Ted Gullick harder to beat than Joe Frazier? Why did Foreman find George S**** Iron Johnson harder to beat than Joe Frazier? And much later why was Qwai Harder to beat than Joe Frazier?

Gullick, Johnson and Qwai could be described as swarmers couldn't they?


Why didn't Foreman simply push them behind a line in the canvas and swat them as they blindly marched forward?

 

Days after turning 24 Foreman destroyed the Heavyweight champ. Foreman gets no credit for being a baby yet being the second best heavy in the golden age.

 

Frazier did not have the physical strength to ever beat prime Foreman. It would always be a waiting game as to when we would hear "down goes Frazier". Probably early but in any case a matter of time. Not if but when.

 

Maybe so but I would have liked to see how George might have got on taking punches from a Frazier who did not have to walk up before hitting. He used to be able to hurt anyone as he moved in, using angles the way he had been able to against Ali. That was gone by then.

Gullick, Johnson, Qawi all hit George flush on the way in. They did not have Frazier power.