A dying Joe Frazier hitting the heavy bag

I laughed at that....then I realised you're probably right O.O

 

Completely agree.

Mrkoolkevin and I have crossed swords in the past but I must say I agree with him here, and bravo for calling it as it is!

 

Correct. Ali's treatment of Frazier WAS shocking at the time - to many. The infamous Michael Parkinson interview, for example.

Calling someone an Uncle Tom was deeply wounding 100 years ago, 50 years ago, or today.

 

Come one now, they are FIGHTERS. You have probably never fought in your life to understand their mentality before a bout. The fact is, I can guarantee Ali has more respect for Frazier than you could possibly ever fathom.

 

After Manila, Ali was adamant when asked by Cosell if Frazier should retire. "No, he's still a great fighter with a lot left in him," words to that effect. If Joe had pulled off the rematch win over Foreman, they were going to go at it a fourth time.

Since Smoke's death, Ali's wife says he's been fading, deeply affected by it.

In that bag punching video, what I see and hear is a guy who's badly impaired with arthritis. He was already severely messed up with it going into Manila, and that clip was over 35 years later. Just how sad was it? He's alive, and laughing, in good humor, and playing around on his own legs, having fun. At the age Frazier is here, Louis was dead after having been in a wheelchair for an extended period, and no longer in control of his bodily functions.

Watching Joe take a tumble and laughing was sort of like watching Tyson fall off that Hoverboard, with a few major differences. Frazier takes another stab at the heavy bag after getting back up before taking a seat, while Mike was ordered into bed for a week by his doctor. Also, when Joe loses his balance and falls, he knows how to do it properly, getting his right arm out of the way as he rolls onto his back, not injuring or even breaking that arm.

Before seeing it, what I'd read was that Smoke had fallen over after missing that bag, like Robinson had against Maxim, and JJW late in his first bout against Louis. But what I see here is that the bag swings back into him and pushes him towards the chair he just put his jacket on. I can't tell if he trips his left ankle over that chair leg, or falls to his right to avoid that chair when he feels it against his ankle (a boxer's reaction upon feeling a bottom rope on his lower leg is to move away from it), but it's actually the fall of a trained athlete in old age. A non athlete might have taken a disastrous backwards clip over that chair and fallen hard, like Tyson did off that Hoverboard, and seriously injured himself.

Major reframe folks! When Joe falls, it's not backwards over that folding chair, or onto his right arm (as a non athlete or somebody else without physical training might), but in a way which completely avoids injury, and allows him, age, arthritis and all, to get right back up and face that bag for a retaliatory stab before taking his own seat (which is perfectly reasonable at his age and condition after his playful exertion and tumble). He rolls onto what sounds like a hard, unpadded surface, off of what are clearly not rubber soled athletic shoes, but dress footwear, does not land with a thump, and keeps his head up so he doesn't whack the back of it, immediately chuckling then replying, "Yeah, c'mon!," when asked if he's alright.

This actually looks like a pretty good instructional video for seniors on how to fall without getting hurt after losing balance, rolling onto his back, not using an arm to catch himself but getting it out of the way, and keeping his head up when he falls so he doesn't whack the back of it. Lesser falls hospitalize, cripple and kill countless seniors, yet he's immediately up to momentarily continue what he's doing, while a 49 year old Tyson, ten years removed from competition, as noted as he is for his speed and reflexes, winds up in bed for a week.

Frazier himself thought this was funny. His athletic experience, reflexes and skills made his fall harmless, so he could laugh at it. (He'd had a far worse accident breaking his ankle in 1970.) Tyson? His four year old daughter Exodus was found strangling by her seven year old brother Miguel on a cord dangling from a treadmill in May 2009. Reports are that this Hoverboard he fell off of last December belonged to another daughter of his. Just how safe is the Tyson household anyway? I don't think Joe's topple down is sad at all, but shows other senior how to help themselves avoid getting hurt like he avoided getting hurt.

His 2005 "Beyond the Glory" profile concludes with somebody who was content and enjoying life, having made peace with Ali at the 2002 NBA All-Star Game in Philly, hanging out with Holmes, around junkyards, and signing autographs. He was doing a lot of stuff he'd liked doing since childhood (specifically the grease ****** type auto mechanics). If there was a last "laugh" between himself and Ali, he's the one who had it, openly expressing pity for Ali's condition. (Ali hates being an object of pity. It carves into his very soul as a fighter. Frazier, on the other hand, chuckles easily, has a smile on his face, and is pretty much doing what he wants.) His interactions on camera with Holmes, Chuvalo and other heavyweights is enjoyable to watch, and his interview with Jim Clash is cheerful.

Joe was never a professional talker like some other heavyweights, but neither did I ever see an interview where close captioning had to be used to understand what he was saying. He was talking pretty much the same in the last year of his life as he was from ringside microphones during Ali-Foreman in 1974 and Ali-Bugner II in 1975. Lifestyle wise, he and Holmes basically remained rural country kids, and money wasn't going to change that. (I mention Larry because of his financial success. My chiropractor has a photograph of himself shaking hands with Holmes, posing together in the middle of the Easton landscape during Larry's prime, completely alone with no other people in the background. Imagine Ali with no entourage. Great wealth or not, Frazier and Holmes wouldn't change much.)

 

That was a charity fundraiser exhibition with 66 year old Memphis Mayor Willie Herenton (a former Golden Gloves Champion) for the city's drug court in November 2006 when Joe was 62. (The 6'6" Herenton was announced at 201 pounds, Frazier at 215.) Three one minute rounds. They weren't wearing tee shirts like the paunchy 51 year old Graziano when he sparred his 1973 reunion exhibition with the 59 year old Zale (who would have killed Rocky in a real fight at that age, sporting the physique of a 20 year old).

There have been a few former HW Champions who could have done what Smoke was doing at 62. Holmes and Foreman obviously. Dempsey, Sharkey, Schmeling, Willard and Patterson all could have done something like that at 62. Ali and Louis obviously not. Considering the ailments Joe had a physical predisposition to, it was respectable enough that he climbed into the ring to move around like that. Working in a hospital for several years, I knew plenty of patients who were invalids from disease before that age, and plenty who didn't even live to be that age.

Louis was receiving charity at 62, Frazier was contributing to charity at 62. Which story is the sad one?

 

There are some incorrect assumptions in your post.

Regarding your second sentence, you are incorrect, I have boxed, and coached boxers.

Regarding your third sentence - "I can guarantee"...really? "You can possibly ever fathom" - how do you know this? You don't know me from Adam.

 

Well seen as you are a fighter like myself, you will understand that the respect you gain after going to war with a man you gain a type of respect that is almost unmatchable. If you really were a fighter you would absolutely understand my third sentence and not really question it. Be real kiddo

 

I don't follow your logic. What does any of this have to do with how classless and disgusting Ali's treatment of Frazier was?? People who respect each other -- whether they are fighters or not-- don't call each other repugnant slurs.

 

Yes; for the 70s...

Clearly terrible now; but that is putting the social values of 2016 on the 70s, which I think you are trying to imply.