Jack Dempsey's Ranking

He had to beat Sharkey he didn't, end of story for Wills. One year later Uzcudon flattened Wills.

 

This is the typical delusional falsehoods that buoy the Dempsey mythos.

On his way to his dubious title shot, Miske was beaten silly by Norfolk and Greb and a Levinsky who was on a major losing streak.

Name me the great heavyweight victories of Gibbons that qualify him for such status? Beating the aforementioned and very sick Billy Miske after getting beaten by him two months previous? Losing a title eliminator to Greb? Tommy Gibbons basically had no heavyweight resume but you are willing to rank him over Wills who had an excellent resume.

Bill Brennan was a career B-rater who lost every time he moved up to the level of a Miske or Greb or Dempsey. How was he among the elite?

And to be truthful about this whole situation, Harry Greb, a lightheavy, beat Gibbons in a title eliminator for a shot at Dempsey and Gibbons received the shot undeservedly, a Gibbons who again possessed virtually no resume at the weight, but according to someone here is still among the best of the division and Greb is not?

Miske was 0-2-1 against Greb, yet still according to some here is among the best in the division and Greb is not.

Brennan went 0-4 against Greb, yet still according to some here is among the best in the division and Greb is not.

Folks, this is the sort of denial, duplicity and willful ignorance that must be faced when having a rational discussion regarding the true merits of Jack Dempsey. It is a fool's errand to waste your time bringing logic to dullards' game.

 

Yes it is a"fool's errand" and YOU ARE the fool...You in your vast intellect and ego know more than the vast multitudes of boxers, boxing writers, trainers, and boxing fans who saw Dempsey and his successors and held him in immense regard as a great heavyweight.
And all along I thought Einstein was dead...

 

Maybe you should take a refresher course in reading comprehension, cos, I never denied he beat those guys, I even went as far as saying Greb would kick Wills butt. So what is your point?

Look here it is, Greb beat all those guys, He could only occupy one slot, in the top ten, try to remember there are 9 slots left to fill if top ten, if top 15 then there are 14 slots, I would think Gibbons and company fit somewhere in there.

But if you are still upset, here's something to brightened your day.

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I guess you cant help yourself, and cannot stop reading into things. Maybe in your haste to find new words from your dictionary and thesaurus, that you missed reading where I said
Greb would have slapped Wills to a dec. Greb in the HW rankings could only occupy one shot in the top ten, so they needed names to fill the rest of the slots, ok.

I will go one one further, Greb should be ranked #1 and not Wills

Baiting baiting baiting.

Oh poor you, you're so innocent, please review some of your earlier posts.

"a rational discussion", you?? Hahaha

 

That makes no sense.
If he helped him get into condition, then he improved him.

 

He didn't teach him anything (skills, tactics, etc) Leonard didn't know already. And Leonard looked very disappointing in those bouts anyway, in reporters' opinion.

 

That's true of a lot of top professional trainers, I suspect.

 

A good case for Greb who actually fought and beat these guys.:good
Now make the case for Wills who didnt!:think

 

dempsey1234

quoting your post #468

"Wills was born May 15, 1892--1924, making him 32-33."

This is true if he was born in 1892. Boxrec does list him as born in 1892.

I think the matter of his age is a good factual question, so I did some research on it. I have no idea where boxrec gets their date from. In their essay on his life, they list him as boxing until he was 43 in 1932, which goes back to the 1889 date.

Cyberboxing, the Boxing Register (from several years back), the old Ring Record Books, and Wikipedia list Wills as being born on May 15, 1889.

Until your post, I had never seen anyone claim anything else.

So I did research on the internet. The AP listed him in their obituary as being 66 at his death in 1958, which jibes with an 1892 birthdate, but w/o info on where they got their facts, I would consider this a bit weak as evidence, as it could just be a typo by a reporter working on a deadline (66 for 69).

I checked the United States census records, which other than a birth certificate, would be the best source in my judgment.

the 1910 census lists Harry Wills as living in Jefferson, Louisiana (apparently a subdivision of New Orleans, but I have never been there) with his age as 21 and his birth year as 1889. This Wills is unmarried.

The 1940 census lists Harry Wills as married to Sarah, and living in New York City. His birth state is given as Louisiana. He is listed as 51 years old in 1940 with his birth year 1889.

I also found a photograph of his grave stone on the internet, and it is marked with his life dates as 1889 to 1958.

So, just myself, I think the weight of evidence, box rec notwithstanding, is that Harry Wills was born on May 15, 1889.

But, of course, I am open to counter evidence if someone presents it.
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Another factual matter is how tall was Wills?

box rec lists him as 6' 2"

cyberboxing 6' 3"

the old Ring Record Book (1976 edition) as 6' 4"

I consider the Ring Record Book the best source of the bunch as the editors personally knew Harry Wills very well.

My own opinion is that in his film with Firpo he looks taller than Firpo. Another film showing him standing next to Jack Johnson shows him several inches taller than Johnson. And he looks like a tall, lean guy. Not as stocky as a 6' 2" man who weighs more than 215 would look.

So my judgment on this one is that the 6' 4" figure is more likely accurate.

 

Thanks for the update, if he was 43 then maybe that's why he looked so slow.

 

He trained an old Leonard by that time there wasn't much you could teach him. Something like Freddie Roach does today they just get him ready.

 

I just quoted box rec as saying he was 43 in 1932.

"looked so slow"

Slow or not Wills was not knocked out of the ring by Firpo.

It is interesting to me that the quote that Firpo "telegraphed" his punches and worse is repeated to denigrate Wills, but Firpo managed to hit and hurt Dempsey, but not Wills.

 

I have to say that the Wills-Firpo versus Dempsey-Firpo comparison is kind of one-sided.

Yes, Dempsey stopped Firpo but he also had more trouble with him.

A good ****ogy would be comparing Jimmy Young's performances against Ron Lyle with George Foreman's. Young won boring fights but really had little trouble. Foreman and Lyle was very exciting, but also touch and go for Foreman.

Providing the more exciting fight with Lyle didn't equate to Foreman handling Young.

 

Wills beat Langford, McVea, Fulton, and Firpo.

Did Greb beat those men?

Did Greb do better against Norfolk than Wills did?