"He had to beat Sharkey" What good would that have done? Tunney was the champion then and Tunney had openly drawn the color line. "One year later Uzcudun flattened Wills." After Dempsey refused to fight an elimination fight with Uzcudun. I wonder how that one would have come out. Wills in 1926 and 1927 was 37 and 38 and obviously going back after having been the top, or one of the top, contender(s) for a decade without getting a shot at Willard or Dempsey. How good a fighter was Dempsey at those ages? There is a film of him with King Levinsky in an exhibition. His performance induced Dempsey to retire permanently. *by the Sharkey fight with Tunney now champion, it was even more obvious that Wills would never get a championship shot, regardless of what he did. Rickard said so openly as he was mad at Wills for suing to halt the Dempsey-Tunney match.
dempsey1234 "I am not sure if Rickard promoted the Weinert and Floyd Johnson fights." Well, the Weinert fight was the co-feature on the Harry Greb-Mickey Walker show at the Polo Grounds, promoted by Humbert Fugazy and Jimmy DeForest. The 1976 Ring Record Book lists Rickard's promotions. I don't know how complete this list is, but the Wills-Johnson fight was promoted by Rickard. The Sharkey-Wills fight is not listed. I don't know who promoted it, but on that basis I would guess it was not Rickard. Also, Wills was on the outs with Rickard after Wills sued to prevent the Dempsey-Tunney fight from going forward.
Ah, the typical old timer's response. Don't address any of the issues brought up and resort to ad hominem cane wagging. Bravo.
Langford and McVey weren't relevant during Dempsey's title reign so why bring them up? Wills beat a Fulton whom Dempsey had crucified in half a minute ,and out pointed Firpo who was not near the shape he had been in for Dempsey. Whom he didn't beat or even fight were: Brennan Miske Tunney Gibbons Renault All of whom Greb not only met but beat. Wills refused Godfrey too.
Good post. Brennan was also KO'd by Firpo, so why is he rated ahead of Firpo. The bottom line was that Greb was the best of the little men during Dempsey's reign (except for perhaps Tunney) and Wills was the best of the big men.
There is nothing of substance in your response. Answer me plainly, how can you rank Gibbons and Brennan as the elite of the division when they plainly had no place as such. And where would you rank Carpentier? And do you rank any of the above, and/or Miske, above Wills? Answers only, please. Conserve your wit for those impressed by it.
Why should he have to fight Brennan when he fought Firpo who KO'd Brennan. Fulton had still had only lost in recent years to Dempsey when he took on Wills. Dempsey was at ringside and talking about fighting the winner, but when the easy winner turned out to be Wills, he didn't. Miske had been beaten twice by Norfolk. Wills KO'd Norfolk. Also, do you have any evidence that until he got really old and frustrated in 1925 and 1926, Wills wouldn't have fought anyone? Let's be fair here. Wills might not have been up to beating Dempsey, but arguing that he was the one doing the ducking with these white contenders is a twisted argument. The money was in fighting the white guys. How many black fighters again did Tunney fight over his whole career?
I didn't say he had to fight anyone what I did was list 5 ranked fighters that Greb beat ,which Wills did not fight. Papers were saying Wills was avoiding the top men its not a secret . I've never suggested he didn't merit a title shot ,but Greb certainly did. Who did Wills beat during Dempsey's title tenure that made him the automatic choice over Greb for a shot at the champ? Two men whom Dempsey had already ko'd in under 3 rds total. Norfolk ? Both beat him there was some controversy over the Wills ko but the referee was sure a good shot had landed. The dsq defeat of Greb isn't anything to brag about ,Norfolk butted him until Harry lost his temper and retaliated only to be slung out. Norfiolk was just as dirty as Greb ,and Wills wasn't far behind either of them. I posted a link that says Rickard offered Wills £250,000 to fight Tunney the winner to meet Dempsey.Wills refused.I don't pretend to know all the circumstances of the times but its the same record over and over here. What has Tunney not meeting blacks to do with this thread? How many did Loughran meet Tom Sharkey? and a couple of dozen others. "Though Wills was black, he was not without means, money and popularity. Suing your way into a fight without promoters may have been like suing the stock market for not going up, but it got Wills case on record. In the meantime, there were many other fighters other than Wills in competition for Dempseys title, and the contenders battled one another for position. But Wills and his manager Paddy Mullins choose not to fight and thus eliminate any of his leading rivals including Tommy Gibbons, Billy Miske, Georges Carpentier, Jim Maloney, Harry Greb, Young Stribling, and Jack Delaney, none of whom drew the color line. Even Gene Tunney offered in 1925. Rickard may not have wanted to take chances, but Wills didnt want to take chances either. By helping to keep Dempsey in court instead of the ringWills also sued to stop both the Dempsey-Firpo and Tunney fightsWills may further have dimmed his own prospects"
Firpo was the same guy who fought Dempsey skill wise. I am sure that had he hit Wills like he hit Dempsey that first shot, he would have hurt and dropped Wills. The clubbing shots that put Dempsey through the ropes were pushes rather then effective punches. Wills must've respected Firpo's strength and power cos he went the distance and was sure to grab and hold Firpo if he got too close. Dempsey was a fighter who tended to fight rather then to hold, which Wills was very good at.
My wit seems to be your kryptonite cos you cant seem to have a rational discussion. I do give you rational answers which you seem to not like or ignore. Consult your dictionary/thesaurus for the definition of "rational".
I see you hitting the dictionary/thesaurus PI. Priceless, did you look up "substance" and "rational". Which of those two fit your current posts?
If you find those words esoteric and out of your everyday vernacular, I am sorry... but it explains a lot.
Firpo was not in the same condition against Wills that he had been for Dempsey. Wills dominated him , I'm not disputing that, but some newspapers were disparaging of his victory. Both Wills and Firpo were knockout artists of roughly the same size. Firpo was slightly heavier and an inch taller than Wills. The Times Daily reported the odds at all but even on the day of the fight. The fight went the full 15 rounds to end in a no-decision contest. The newspapers including the Quebec Daily Telegraph hailed Wills as a winner who took almost every round and in the second round floored his opponent. In front of an audience 75,000, it was the highest profile fight of Wills career. But while the fight put Wills in the spotlight, it also put him under the microscope. After three years campaigning as top contender, some witnesses were not impressed. The Milwaukee Journal headlined, Harry Wills No Match for Champion Dempsey. Wills general ability as a fighter would not be sufficiently high to stand the champion off. Firpo not only telegraphs his wallops, but sends a letter of warning but Dempsey doesnt telegraph. His punches come from a short distance and behind them lurk oblivion
When a thread turns into a general brawl, it is tempting to crawl out from under it, then sit back and watch!