Jack Dempsey's Ranking

Obviously Joe Louis is at the top of the mountain, but Foreman and Marciano aren't far off.

Foreman emphatically destroyed a great fighter to win the title, and then destroyed the number 1 contender who is a consensus top 20 heavyweight. He then regained the lineal title 20 years after losing it.

Marciano retired undefeated and defended his title 6 times, only against #1 and #2 contenders. Beat multiple hall of famers.

Dempsey beat Fred Fulton on his way to a title shot. Impressive win, probably the best of his career. He beat Willard who was old, inactive and undertrained, but also never really all that good in the first place. He then proceeded to defend his title against very underwhelming challengers, didn't fight Greb or Wills who were both stand outs. Took 3 years off, lost his title to Tunney, scored a controversial win over Sharkey and lost to Tunney again.

His work is more in the realm of say Jersey Joe Walcott, if we're being fair.

 

Okay. Let's start. Who did Dempsey beat who would qualify him to be rated above Foreman? Who did Dempsey beat who was better than the reigning heavyweight champion Joe Frazier, for example?

Was Jess Willard better than Joe Frazier? Was Fred Fulton? Do you rate Fred Fulton and Jess Willard higher on your all-time heavyweight lists than Joe Frazier?

C'mon. :roll: This is the classic forum, right? Do you guys literally have to be led by the hand.

Dempsey doesn't have the big wins to put him even near the top.

Who was the best heavyweight Dempsey beat? Where do you rate that Dempsey opponent all-time?

Do any of Dempsey's opponents show up in any of your top 30 heavyweights of all time? Or top 40 heavyweights of all time?

He doesn't have the wins. If he did, you guys would be rattling off those BIG WINS instead of rattling off the names of "experts" who picked Dempsey in fantasy matchups.

Everyone is rated on who they beat ... Dempsey doesn't get his own ratings system separate from everyone else.

 

I've made a lot of heavyweight lists over the years. They are pretty fluid because fights continued to take place in the sport.

But Dempsey has never appeared in any top 10 list I've ever made.

He doesn't have the wins to get there. Too many top heavyweights in the 90 years since Dempsey retired have fought too many other top heavyweights.

I'm not someone who says "Well, 90 years ago, Sam Langford said Dempsey was the best, so that's that." The sport didn't end 90 years ago where we put a cap on it and no one came after.

 

Senya

You are right and I am wrong. The Jeffries-Corbett fight was on August 14, 1903,

and so it was indeed theoretically possible to get from San Francisco to Boston between the two fights.

I personally think it was very unlikely Sam Langford actually did though.

No excuse. I should have really read carefully if I want to quote a fact. I do have a cataract operation scheduled for a couple of months from now. They are going to replace my lens with an artificial lens. Amazing what they can do these days.

But someone with failing sight should be more careful and I wasn't.

 

If we're talking about Dempsey and Foreman's resume lets look at this objectively.

At a glance

Dempsey- Beat Fulton, Willard, Miske, Gibbons, Firpo, Carpentier, Brennan, Sharkey and Gunboat Smith

Dempsey destroyed Fulton who was 75-8-3 from 1913-1922. Dempsey absolutely destroyed Willard who knocked out who many thought was unbeatable and Johnson is on many top 10 heavyweight lists today. Many think that Willard was out of shape for the Dempsey fight but in Dempsey's book Championship Fighting he talks about the fight saying he really weighed 180lbs and that Willard looked very muscular and that "not an ounce of fat was on him". Dempsey also stated that he heard Willards training camp wasn't going the best. His win over Willard is probably the most brutal one sided Championship bout in the history of the heavyweight division. Miske was a great heavyweight but Dempsey drew with him the first fight won a decision the second and knocked him out in the third. Tommy Gibbons is regarded by many as a p4p great fighter but was a natural light heavyweight who had recently beaten Billy Miske. Gibbons posed that most problems for Dempsey in his entire career wins. Firpo was a hard hitting Argentinian brawler who had dominated Willard and Brennan. Firpo outweighed Dempsey by 24 pounds whom Dempsey rushed from the opening bell being knocked down twice and knocking down Firpo 7 times. Dempsey proved he could beat bigger stronger brawlers. Brennan was a great heavyweight who had never been off his feet prior to the first Dempsey bought where he was knocked down 6 times and dominated throughout. Dempsey knocked him out another time during the rematch. Carpentier was a p4p great fighter and greatest light heavy at the time as well as the champ. Carpentier had no problems whatsoever against heavyweights holding many vicotries in his career. Sharkey was a very well rounded fighter and top contender behind Harry Wills. Dempsey won the controversial knockout but you must protect yourself at all times and the fight was not on a break. Gunboat Smith was another top heavyweight at the time who Dempsey beat by decision and knocked out in the second fight. Smith was past prime when he fought Dempsey but was great when prime.

Foreman- Norton, Frazier, Moorer, Lyle, Savarese, and ****ey

Dempsey beat some of the guys on his list multiple times by knockout. They were top contenders.

Foreman beat 2 heavyweights who are considered in the top 20 heavyweights of all time. ****ey was at the end of his career and far past prime. I don't think "great heavyweight of his era" comes to mind when people think of Savarese. Lyle had just stopped Shavers and went a war with Foreman knocking him down twice if I remember right (sorry haven't watched the fight since last year). Moorer was a natural light heavyweight and went up around 40 pounds to fight at Heavyweight. The difference between Moorer and the former light heavies that Dempsey fought was they were putting on only 10 pounds and a lot filled out into the heavyweight division because some started careers as growing teenagers. Frazier is known as a top 10 heavyweight top many. He was obviously at the end of his prime but still had some left in him. Frazier went on to have a war with Ali where he was stopped late. Norton had a great fight with Ali and had great power but a bad style for fighting heavy hitters like Shavers, ****ey and Foreman. He was stopped early in his career by the 188lb Jose Luis Garcia but knocked him out in the rematch. Foreman beat more ATG's (2).

 

Well then I'd say Walcott comes close to Marciano and Foreman too.

Bracketed Marciano and Foreman virtually in the same bracket as Joe Louis in terms of accomplishments, and then saying Dempsey's nowhere near them, just seems off to me.
I guess it's a sense of perspective.

 

No, I rate Frazier higher than anyone Dempsey beat.

I'm not saying Dempsey should be rated above Foreman necessarily. I just don't see how Foreman and Marciano etc. get put virtually alongside Joe Louis while you insist Dempsey deserves to be nowhere near.
To most people on this forums, rating the all-time heavyweights after the top 5, or even after the top 2, the order becomes debatable, lots of fighters sitting around the same level, and that's why many people actually prefer to rank by tiers.

These questions are paradoxical.
When people start implying you need to have a top 40 to decide who deserves to be wherever in a top 10, that's nonsensical.

I think it makes more sense to start with a dozen names, and decided which ones deserves to be #1, and then #2, and so on ... until you have the top 7 or 8 decided, then maybe add a few more candidates to those remaining, and then decide a few more places, until you have a top 10, a top 12, a top 15 .... and so on.

Instead of starting by saying "errr, I'll start at #50 and that's Fred Fulton, and #49 I think I'll say it's Pinklon Thomas .... I'll work out my top 10 when I get some of these lesser guys out of the way."



Out of interest, where do you rate Joe Louis ? And where do you rate the best opponent Louis beat ?

Yeah, ok, I think this comment is directed at others because I haven't been doing that.

I agree.
That's why I asked to see your top 5 or top 10.
You seem to have a good system, so let's see the list.

Show the latest list you made then.
I'm just curious to see how well you apply the principles you've been preaching.

That might be right.

 

Such ****.

For starters Dempsey koed leading contender Fulton with one punch within 30 seconds of round one. With one punch Dempsey koed young and prime Jack Sharkey leading contender for the hwt crown and a few years later hwt champion of the world.

Name another hwt champion with two one punch kos over No 1 contenders.

 

No 1 contender was black and a black man did not get a shot at the title until 1937. Know your history young and very inexperienced one!

 

"a black man did not get a shot at the title until 1937. Know your history"

What was Jack Johnson?
---------------------------------------------------------

If what you are saying is that Wills didn't get a shot, and no other black man after Jack Johnson did until 1937,

what exactly is your point,

This was a good thing?

Wills shouldn't complain?

Dempsey should be given a pass for not fighting his #1 contender?

 

Does it sound cringey as hell to anyone else that Jack Dempsey beating (insert any black man here) would give him some kind of right of passage to acceptance?

If skin color had anything to do with him not fighting Wills, it was for political and cultural reasons. But people make it sound as if darker skin is kryptonite for Dempsey, and apply it to fantasy matches against other black fighters lol.


¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

You could make an argument that Firpo was the #1 contender when Dempsey beat him.