Jack Dempsey's Ranking

"Wills' eyes were open and he knew all that was going on"

Doesn't follow. One can completely be out and have your eyes open.

A good example in boxing is the Johansson KO in the second Patterson fight.

There are photos taken from the side showing Ingo's face. Blood was coming out of his nose. And his eyes were open. Actually, it is kind of scary.

Actually I even have personal knowledge. I was about nine and my father had fallen and hit his head. I was the one who discovered him. He was on his back looking straight up with his eyes open, but he didn't respond at all. He came around later and was all right, but boy it frightened me.

 

Although Langford heaped praise on Dempsey, he did not shy away from criticising him where he felt it was appropriate.

He said that Dempsey was the best fighter he had seen, and picked him to beat Wills, but he also criticised him for not fighting Wills.

The most parsimonious explanation is that he just said what he believed.

 

Fair enough.

My criticism would mainly be relying on quotes which I don't find a reliable source--unless the guy writes something down.

A better criticism of using Langford concerning Dempsey's all-time ranking is how many of the contenders for a top ten or top fifteen slot did he actually see? Dempsey and Johnson, and Wills. It is probable that he did not see Jeffries in his prime. And others of the old guys like Fitz, Corbett, and Sullivan, not likely, certainly anywhere near their primes. And no one after 1930.

 

Ed, Here is the key, "he knew all that was going on, but he made no move while Referee Geo.Blake was countin off the ten seconds and waited for his handlers to lift him to the chair.

At the ringside, many of our most conservative critics voiced the opinion that Wills had found the going too rough and had taken the easiest way out."

There is a difference being KTFO and being stopped. A person can tell the difference and it seemed as Wills dogged it, and this is just one report there were others in other fights.

 

"Dempsey looked like an absolute world-beater"

Not to me. I don't see an absolute world beater in the films of the fights with Brennan, Gibbons, and Firpo, let alone Tunney.

He was a very good fighter, certainly, but we see him struggling with Brennan, going the distance with a light-heavyweight Gibbons, getting knocked out of the ring by Firpo, and losing badly to Tunney.

 

He obviously meant best heavyweight he'd seen, as he compared Dempsey to Corbett and Jeffries in the very next sentence. Not to Joe Gans, not to Benny Leonard, not to any other outstanding non-heavyweight, but two previous hw champions.

 

Did Wills later say he knew what was going on?

or did someone at ringside just presume to know if he was conscious or not?

And is that person making the judgment medically trained?

Even a physician sometimes has to find out if a man is conscious or not. It might not be obvious.

*If this a left-handed reference to the Sharkey fight,

I recently re-watched the first Louis-Schmeling fight. In the later rounds Louis hit Schmeling low with left hooks quite often. Was he trying to foul out? Was he dogging it at the end? Or is it just that he was weary and not quite right anymore with his punches going wild.

 

Well, it seems to elude you that Langford didn't see that many top heavyweights.

You apparently dismiss Tunney's obvious bias and ego involvement.

That is your right, but I don't.

"alterior motives"

But Tunney doesn't have any? even though his reputation and ego are totally entwined with Dempsey's reputation?

 

The problem with this argument is that a champion cannot beat their opposition without devaluing them.

The alleged stiffest challenges to a dominant champion occur either before or after their prime, or if they occur during their prime it is somebody who beat them, or somebody they didn’t fight.

Some of the other stiff challenges are probably obscured by the champion’s dominance.

If Jack Dempsey had fallen under the wheels of a model T Ford, then somebody would have had to be champion during those years, and there are only so many outcomes.

Willard is going to lose to somebody during that period, and they are unlikely to hold the title for very long.

You are going to get two or three additional lineal champions, and they are likely to be people who Dempsey beat, or people who got beaten by people he beat.

 

"most people who saw him fight were very impressed"

Yes,

but, Tex Rickard thought Jeffries was greater.

Nat Fleischer thought Johnson, Jeffries, and Fitz were greater.

He was not as overwhelming in the betting odds as Louis would later be, which calls into question whether he was actually viewed as that far above the pack back in his day.

 

Langford was in the ring with a who's who of ATG fighters including hwts.

Sam knew an ATG fighter when he saw one and to in any way dispute this is coming from total ignorance or some deep down hatred. It's obvious from you it's a little of both. Take the great mans comment as he stated it....period.

What in the world are you talking about? Shaking my head in complete disbelief of your ignorance.