Does Muhammad Ali deserve to ranked top 5 ATG All Time?

I think you may be confusing "pound per pound" and "well-rounded/complete." A fighter can be an all-time "pound per pound" guy even if he is one dimensional or limited, because he possesses one or two stupendous asset that no one else can deal with. On the flip-side, a well-rounded or complete fighter can be mediocre, because he is not exceptional at anything or possesses one critical flaw.

Now, addressing your explicit question: I do not have Ali in my top 5, but it's a defensible position to rank him there, and it's very close.

 

What confuses me is the pass Ali gets for his struggles with Frazier and Norton. Yes he won, but he also lost.

 

I just don't think that's an appropriate comparison. Ali was a HW. Robinson went 5-1 against a much bigger man.

 

He lost but then came back to win. This is a must to be ranked along with others who exhibited this attribute of all time greatness.

 

I agree, but against Norton you could argue he lost the rematch as well.

 

Ali was also a lot more game than many modern fighters. He could sense when a fight was becoming idle, and would turn the volume up a little.

Same goes for his record. While most fighters today look for low risk high reward opportunities, Ali would challenge himself out of his depth. And he would even win on many of those occasions. His record is stacked.

But Cus summed it up succinctly when he told Tyson that Ali's best attribute was his character. Looking at his stat sheet is one thing. But to get the full picture you have to know who Ali is.

 

The guy had ***** of steel, Rez. Compare his opponents after his layoff to the fall guys Haye has picked!

 

Good post. :good

 

No you can't. He won the official decision in both fight two and three. No second guessing allowed.

 

There is legitimate second guessing galore. There is no fighter in history that received more favoritism than Ali.

 

In terms of Notable victories, I would rank him lower than #5. He's a great fighter, just not top 5 of the last 150 years.

Ray Robinson- Angott, Zivic, Armstrong, LaMotta, Gavilan, Villemain, Fullmer, Basilio, Graziano, Olson
Henry Armstrong- Arizmendi, Ross, Ambers, Garcia, Angott, Wolgast, Jenkins, Zivic,
Harry Greb- Tunney, Walker, Loughran, Gibbons, Norfolk, Slattery, Smith, Levinsky, Miske
Sam Langford- Jeanette, McVey, Wills, Norfolk, Flowers, Gans, Godfrey, O'Brien
Archie Moore- Bivins, Chase, Williams, Johnson, Satterfield, Maxim, Olson, Cocoa Kid, Marshall
Muhammad Ali- Liston, Moore, Patterson, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Ellis, Quarry
Ezzard Charles- Louis, Walcott, Moore, Bivins, Burley, Maxim, Yarosz, Overlin, Marhsall, Christoforidis, Lesnevich
Benny Leonard- Welsh, Dundee, Kilbane, Britton, White, Tendler
Mickey Walker- Britton, Tendler, Flowers, Levinsky, Uzcudun, Rosenbloom
Willie Pep- Saddler, Wright, Ortiz, Famechon
Barney Ross- McLarnin, Canzoneri, Battalino, Garcia
Tony Canzoneri- McLarnin, Ambers, Dundee, Singer, Berg, Chocolate, Arizmendi
Manny Pacquiao- Marquez, Morales, Barrera, De La Hoya, Cotto, Bradley, Margarito, Mosley, Hatton, Ledwaba
Floyd Mayweather Jr.- Pacquiao, De La Hoya, Alvarez, Castillo, Corrales, Mosley, Cotto, Hernandez, Marquez
Duran- Leonard, DeJesus, Buchanan, Barkley, Cuevas, Palomino, Ishimatsu, Mamby, Viruet, Marcel, Kobayashi
Sugar Ray Leonard- Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Benitez, Mayweather, Lalonde

 

As far as the losses to Frazier and Norton go,one was a fellow all time great and the other has to be rated in the 'very good' category.


I have Ali at number one in an all time great heavyweight list and in the lower reaches of P4P at all weights.

 

You think that the second Frazier fight caused the onset of Parkinsons ? Interesting. I see it differently. I truly believe that had Muhammad retired after the Foreman bout,he'd still be pretty healthy today. Maybe even if he'd called it a day after the THIRD Frazier fight. But who knows ?

 

I have Ali as my greatest Heavyweight ever and the greatest heavyweight ever is always going to be somewhere in my top 5. Heavyweight champ is the most prestigious position in all of boxing (if not all of sport) tho it may have fallen a bit in recent more boring years. Heavyweights are also handicapped a bit in that they cannot rise in weight and win titles in other divisions.

 

Why would any past prime fighter need a pass for going 2-1 against a fighter as good as Frazier?

Norton is a different matter, though. Both because he wasn't as good as Frazier and also because you could argue that he really lost none of his fights against Ali. But you could also argue that a somewhat faded Norton beat a prime Holmes (I wouldn't, but in such a close fight the argument is always there). And he did beat Young. So that tells us that Norton probably was a very difficult opponent for boxers without a terrific punch.

I don't very often see Ali in people's top 5 p4p, so the basis for this thread seems slightly moot imo. But if you would make the argument you'd probably point to such things that:

1) He has more than 30 wins against opponents ranked in the top 10 at the time (more than for example Duran, I think, who often is in the top 10 p4p).

2) He pretty much ****s on anyone not named Joe Louis or Henry Armstrong when it comes to wins in fights for the undisputed title.

3) He is one of very few, or perhaps the only one, with a winning record against three fighters that are routinely ranked around the top 10 for that division. And if you take into account that most of those wins came after his prime, he must be unique.